Bow and armoured units

[BigChef]

First of all its a wonderful mod and i hope we will see updates for a long time. With this a dream came true, epic battles in Middle Earth. Thank you for that.

I tested bow units with vanilla 1.4 and with RC. In both, bow units are very useful against unarmoured units, but after some playtime the more advanced and more armoured (more or less armoured for each faction) units appear.

When this happens bow units begin to loose much of their ground, they kill one or two units with each volley, and thats really not much. Crossbows are still useful.

I know that some say now hey its realistic, i know that and i understand it, but when i see rhun crossbows are killing much more for example mordor uruks than sindar archers which are much more expensive and less available there is something wrong and it kills a lot of middle earth feeling for me.

Is there any possibility to change that, that for example the better archers like the elven ones, gondor longbow, rangers and so on are deadly for armoured aswell?

Hope i am not alone with that.

[newt]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=221093

You want to mess with stat_pri_attr

[Orson]

I find that CA makes very weak archers and are wayyyy below their potential. I mean think about it, I will shoot a volly of about 100+ arrows in a single regiment of archers, and only like 5-15 troops die. Now I watched an episode of "mail call" one day about bow's and arrows and they did a test on what armours an arrow could go through and almost no matter what you put in front of it, and arrow will go through it<----- medival armour is what i mean. 100+ volly of arrows should kill at least %60-%70 of an enemy regiment. Thats very realistic(in terms of realism) for that many troops to die in a regiment or battalion. Even snagas dont those much either and they have no armour i think. I suppose i could modify their damage and see how realistic it can get. But if i put them at max damage which is 63 i think? they would be able to kill trolls very quick.

[Æsir]

100+ volly of arrows should kill at least %60-%70 of an enemy regiment. Thats very realistic...

You are dreaming, man. Medieval archers were the most inefficient and lowest paid troops (with exception of English ones). Volley of 100 arrows shouldn't kill more than 5 armored targets from 100 (ie 5%).

EDIT: And 5% - that's only for game-play purposes. The real percent I believe was not higher than 1%-2%.

[Point Blank]

You are dreaming, man. Medieval archers were the most inefficient and lowest paid troops (with exception of English ones). Volley of 100 arrows shouldn't kill more than 5 armored targets from 100 (ie 5%).

EDIT: And 5% - that's only for game-play purposes. The real percent I believe was not higher than 1%-2%.

Right. Agincourt = about a half million arrows shot by elite English Archers, that caused maybe, at most, a few thousand casualties.

[athanaric]

100+ volly of arrows should kill at least %60-%70 of an enemy regiment.

Yes. Archers equipped with Barrett M82 "bows" and Raufoss MK211 "arrows" might do that.

[Æsir]

Originally Posted by Orson
100+ volly of arrows should kill at least %60-%70 of an enemy regiment.

Yes. Archers equipped with Barrett M82 "bows" and Raufoss MK211 "arrows" might do that.

You made my day! +rep

[athanaric]

Thanks.

People should notice that all serious mods out there decrease the general effectiveness of archers, instead of making them superhuman killing machines. Besides, Elven archers in TATW are already supremely powerful, thanks to their technology and marksmanship.

[Point Blank]

First of all its a wonderful mod and i hope we will see updates for a long time. With this a dream came true, epic battles in Middle Earth. Thank you for that.

I tested bow units with vanilla 1.4 and with RC. In both, bow units are very useful against unarmoured units, but after some playtime the more advanced and more armoured (more or less armoured for each faction) units appear.

When this happens bow units begin to loose much of their ground, they kill one or two units with each volley, and thats really not much. Crossbows are still useful.

I know that some say now hey its realistic, i know that and i understand it, but when i see rhun crossbows are killing much more for example mordor uruks than sindar archers which are much more expensive and less available there is something wrong and it kills a lot of middle earth feeling for me.

Is there any possibility to change that, that for example the better archers like the elven ones, gondor longbow, rangers and so on are deadly for armoured aswell?

Hope i am not alone with that.

In RC, Sindar archers have attack 9, range 200 and accuracy 0.01. Rhunnic crossbowmen have 10/140/0.0625. There is no comparison, Sindar archers shoot more accurately, more quickly and further, and also carry more ammo.

Sindar archers have 1 less attack. For an archer to have almost the same attack as a heavy crossbow is pretty exceptional.

[BigChef]

In RC, Sindar archers have attack 9, range 200 and accuracy 0.01. Rhunnic crossbowmen have 10/140/0.0625. There is no comparison, Sindar archers shoot more accurately, more quickly and further, and also carry more ammo.

Sindar archers have 1 less attack. For an archer to have almost the same attack as a heavy crossbow is pretty exceptional.

Yes its all true, more ammo, more accuratly etc. but it only counts what is dead after 5 volleys and against armoured units like uruks from mordor, crossbows win. The difference is the ap ability of the crossbows, perhaps it would be good to give it to the better archers too?

[Point Blank]

Yes its all true, more ammo, more accuratly etc. but it only counts what is dead after 5 volleys and against armoured units like uruks from mordor, crossbows win. The difference is the ap ability of the crossbows, perhaps it would be good to give it to the better archers too?

There are no AP missile units in RC. Also Sindar archer numbers are low. But they have so many advantages, range, shooting rate, terrain bonuses, melee capability, movement speed, mental stats, armor, auto-regeneration...the list goes on.

You need to look at units as their complete stats set, rather than just one aspect.

[King Siegfried]

Sindar Archers are mind-blowing. If you're not killing much, then try having more than one unit. 6-10 Sindar Archers means 66% or more of the enemy's army will be dead before reaching your lines.

[Kawee]

And throw in the fact that they're very hard to kill in melee and self-regenerate as well, without a shade of doubt, my favourite unit in the game, even though they don't dominate the open battlefield as much as the Rhun BG.

But I think your numbers are a bit off, Orson. I'm not going portray myself as a History elite or anything, but from what I've read, arrows didn't dominate the battlefield as much as you say.

[Maxamus]

Lol idk if this is realistic, but in braveheart every1 dies from arrows lol...
Archers
Pardon sire, but wolnt we hit our own troops
Yes, but we'll hit theirs as well, and we have reserves. Attack

[moimeme]

Longshanks is a

[Muffer Nl]

That's what they did in those days dude...

[Kawee]

That's what they did in those days dude...

What? Have a kill rate of 60-70%? I highly highly doubt it. Not even the legendary English longbowmen had such an impressive kill rate. Humakty partially explained why.

[Humakty]

The braveheart example is interesting, but scots in this movie don't wear any armor. They're a bunch of rebels, not a true army. Do they even have shields ?

The penetration of armor pretty much depends on the angle of the hit (90 being ideal), it is very rare (read: never ever) to obtain this in real combat situation when you're shooting quick volleys, and not aiming each arrow at a precise ennemy.Indirect fire also makes a perfect hit even less likely (near to 0 %). Comparatively to the time it takes to train an archer, it's results are rather poor, apart for the firing rate, which is top notch. If most countries that could did replace them with crossbows/guns, it's for a good reason.

So all in all, I think the various elven archers in this mod have incredible performance, they crush whole armies all by themselves, getting them any better is really going a tad too far.

[Mikail Mengsk]

They would become seriously overpowered: they already have better range, firing rate and accuracy. If they also have ap, then we should name them "snipers".

[BigChef]

Yeah thats the problem, but with lore i would say, sindar archers, the best of the best, one shoot one kill. Perhaps lower the numbers more to 60 at huge or whatever.

I tried it again, sindar archers against mordor uruks 10 volleys 64 uruks dead, rhun crossbows 6 volleys 52 uruks dead.

See what i mean? Archers with the experience of centuries or more are doing at least the same damage as farmers with crossbows who train 4 weeks. Lore?