Byzantine Empire - To attack or not to attack?

[Sir Walter]

I've been playing a clean 6.1 Byzantine campaign and have reached a cross-roads... to start, this is what I've done so far:

1. Annexed rebel territories up to Skopje, East to Trebizond and West to Durazzo, along with Adana.

2. Allied with Hungary, Kiev, Kwarhezm, Holy Roman Empire and Fatimids (why not watch my back?)

3. Attacked Venice, took Ragusa, Ancona and Iraklion, made peace.

4. Attacked Seljuks, took Caesarea, then everything further West of that, killing their royal family so the Sultanate collapsed... took Diyarbakir and Edessa but Templars and Kwarhezm cashed in on Armenia

5. Attacked Sicily, took Naples, Bari, Palermo and Syracuse, made peace (Sicily now a North African state in all but name).

6. Sided with Germans against Fatimids, attacked Fatimids, took Antioch, Tortosa, Acre, Gaza, Damascus and Jerusalem, planning on continuing (Cairo is rebel after being neglected by Poland which took it on Crusade... )

7. Attacked Venice, took Venice and Innsbruck (Venetian capital and only settlement is Salzburg, which I have under siege).

8. Attacked Templars, took Aleppo. Kwarhezm sided with Templars against me. Supposedly their only settlement is Mosul but my map information is old. Pope hates me for attacking the Catholics.

Anyway, I'm not sure whether to attack the Pope and kill him, seeing as he only has Rome and Florence, and I can make him a vassal and settle him in somewhere like Sinop or Iraklion, or stick with the Catholics and attack Kwarhezm... any ideas?

[Caesar Clivus]

Take out the pope.

[Mr. Tornado]

MURDER THE POPE. WHEN HE REAPPEARS, MURDER HIM AGAIN. THEN WHEN HE POPS UP AGAIN, KILL HIM AGAIN. REPEAT AND RINSE.

[cuo]

While reading the first post I already knew that the following posters will recommend to kill the pope. It seems like everyone hates the pope in here.

[Sir Walter]

While reading the first post I already knew that the following posters will recommend to kill the pope. It seems like everyone hates the pope in here.

My opinion of the Pope varies with who I'm playing as... if I'm playing a Catholic, he's okay, if I'm playing an Orthodox, he's annoying, if I'm playing a Muslim, he's a waste of space, and if I'm playing as Lithuania he is the most volatile, unworthy piece of worthless excremental vermin ever to stain the earth.

[Sir Walter]

Fair enough. If I kill Popes so quickly that there are no 5-piety priests left to replace him, is the Papacy exterminated?

[Caesar Clivus]

See if I'm playing as catholic, he's annoying. If I'm orthodox, he's annoying. If I'm anyone, he's annoying

[Double A]

Kill him with fire! Take Rome back and then reforge the Roman Empire! AND THEN SOME! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

See if I'm playing as catholic, he's annoying. If I'm orthodox, he's annoying. If I'm anyone, he's annoying

Even Cumans?

[Caesar Clivus]

Even Cumans?

Yep. Once you start taking Hungary, popey gets annoyed. Then everyone else gets annoyed...at me!

[Massive_attack]

/facepalm at thread

Look, OP, yes, burning rome to the ground and killing the pope is fun, but as people have pointed out, he comes back.

Your best course of action is to vassal that poor fool, or take rome but put him on a island like Crete and then vassal him. Letting him have rome is preferable, since the pope always spawns there.

Alternatively, kill the old man and take rome, then ally the pope. A homeless pope is a weak pope, and if you can vassal him then, all the better.

What im trying to say is there are better alternatives to simply constantly killing popes as the magically re-appear, if your going to storm italy, do it with a clear plan of exactly what your going to do with his holiness.

Giving the pope an alternative settlement has worked well, but be careful which land to give the man, he tends to go on a killing spree of doom if you relocate him anywhere rich and with borders, thus my island suggestion.

EDIT: PS: going after the pope at all might by an iffy idea. Once his holiness declares war, proverbially hits the fan, and the entire catholic world will want you deader than a 80's sitcom.

[Caesar Clivus]

EDIT: PS: going after the pope at all might by an iffy idea. Once his holiness declares war, proverbially hits the fan, and the entire catholic world will want you deader than a 80's sitcom.

But that's when the game gets fun

[Double A]

In my abandoned and completely suicidal vanilla campaign where I migrated to Rome, I had 2 militia spearmen on standby constantly killing him for a few turns (till I bought Andana off Turkey or Egypt, and then sold it to him).

That worked pretty well, given that I auto-resolved all those battles.

[Double A]

Yeah, in my experience, I can't seem to piss off factions enough.

In Vanilla I have some stupid stalemate with the HRE in my original Venetian campaign, but they (nor their 8 allies, half of which we share) were willing to strike first.

Ah well hopefully I'll be able to piss off the Pope or the Muslims enough to get a Crusade or a Jihad on Constantinople in my new Byzie campaign.

[JorisofHolland]

Orthodox factions can't get crusades called against them. They are "immune" to the Pope. So they only factions that completely ignore the pope are the Russians and Romans. All other factions have in one or the other way trouble with him. Catholics can't fight their brethern and Musilms can't fight catholics either. Given he dislikes Pagans, you can never grow a large empire without the old fool in Rome calling a crusade on you.

In conclusion, he is one of the best elements of the game.

[Aspirin4o]

Orthodox factions can't get crusades called against them. They are "immune" to the Pope. So they only factions that completely ignore the pope are the Russians and Romans.

Wow, I didn't knew that. So now I can stop the 500 cash per turn that I'm giving him at the moment and to tell him to go to Hell in my current Byz campaign.

[JorisofHolland]

Yes, it's a waste of money. Orthodox factions are good for starters (their position may be the only bad thing about them) as you can only get Jihads called against you. If you play the Romans, you WILL get a Jihad called against Constantinople. Factions like Novgorod and Kiev are less likely to become the victim of a religious struggle.

[Sir Walter]

Yes, it's a waste of money. Orthodox factions are good for starters (their position may be the only bad thing about them) as you can only get Jihads called against you. If you play the Romans, you WILL get a Jihad called against Constantinople. Factions like Novgorod and Kiev are less likely to become the victim of a religious struggle.

Novgorod is the best starting faction. No Muslims want it, no Crusades can be called and the only non-rebels nearby are Kiev who you won't be fighting

/facepalm at thread

Look, OP, yes, burning rome to the ground and killing the pope is fun, but as people have pointed out, he comes back.

Your best course of action is to vassal that poor fool, or take rome but put him on a island like Crete and then vassal him. Letting him have rome is preferable, since the pope always spawns there.

Alternatively, kill the old man and take rome, then ally the pope. A homeless pope is a weak pope, and if you can vassal him then, all the better.

What im trying to say is there are better alternatives to simply constantly killing popes as the magically re-appear, if your going to storm italy, do it with a clear plan of exactly what your going to do with his holiness.

Giving the pope an alternative settlement has worked well, but be careful which land to give the man, he tends to go on a killing spree of doom if you relocate him anywhere rich and with borders, thus my island suggestion.

EDIT: PS: going after the pope at all might by an iffy idea. Once his holiness declares war, proverbially hits the fan, and the entire catholic world will want you deader than a 80's sitcom.

Byzantium can own the Catholics early era if it doesn't get cocky, all you need is a few spare stacks and no Catholic borders that aren't mountainous/rivers (i.e. until you're a superpower stay in south of the Alps, Hungary and the Danube, you'll be fine. Then build up a huge task force and go pwn those stupid Catholics! )

[JorisofHolland]

Novgorod is the best starting faction. No Muslims want it, no Crusades can be called and the only non-rebels nearby are Kiev who you won't be fighting

There are no Muslims who want Kiev either, IIRC. Only the Seljuks go up north that far sometimes.

Byzantium can own the Catholics early era if it doesn't get cocky, all you need is a few spare stacks and no Catholic borders that aren't mountainous/rivers (i.e. until you're a superpower stay in south of the Alps, Hungary and the Danube, you'll be fine. Then build up a huge task force and go pwn those stupid Catholics! )

Your troops are superior untill gunpowder arrives, and then they are still capable to deal with most (catholic) enemies one on one. The Janissaries are a different story, though. It's better to go on the offensive immediately and see how far you get IMHO.

[Sir Walter]

There are no Muslims who want Kiev either, IIRC. Only the Seljuks go up north that far sometimes.

Poland is the main rival of Kiev, or the Cumans. Novgorod is less likely to be attacked by either while still trying to find its feet.

Your troops are superior untill gunpowder arrives, and then they are still capable to deal with most (catholic) enemies one on one. The Janissaries are a different story, though. It's better to go on the offensive immediately and see how far you get IMHO.

I always try to wipe out the Seljuqs first. They start out weak and get stronger and stronger, so why not?

[JorisofHolland]

Because you want a very difficult game? I still have to try a game where I will simply stop expanding after gobling up a few rebels. Especially as a Roman that would be very hard, I guess.