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  1. #1
    Il-Principe's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...969692,00.html

    They were young disaffected men who were radicalized and turned into Islamist militants bent on killing American soldiers stationed in Germany. In a Düsseldorf courtroom where the four men were standing trial this week, Judge Ottmar Breidling said the defendants had dreamed of "mounting a second 9/11." But their plot went awry when German police were tipped off to their activities and special forces raided their hideout in September 2007. On Thursday, as Germany's biggest Islamic terrorist trial came to an end, the four men — dubbed the "Sauerland cell" — were convicted of a number of terror-related charges, including conspiracy to murder, and received prison sentences ranging from five to 12 years apiece.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The verdicts brought to a close a 10-month trial that highlighted the danger of homegrown terrorists in Germany. The defendants — Fritz Gelowicz, 30, and Daniel Schneider, 24, both Germans; Adem Yilmaz, a 31-year-old Turk; and Atilla Selek, a 25-year-old Turkish-German — had confessed to all of the charges against them. Prosecutors detailed how they had plotted to bomb U.S. military bases in Germany, such as Ramstein Air Base, as well as places like discos and pubs where U.S. service personnel were known to go. The attacks were planned for October 2007, just before a parliamentary vote was scheduled on extending Germany's troop deployment in Afghanistan. Had the men succeeded, Breidling said there would have been "a monstrous bloodbath, primarily among U.S. army personnel and also civilians."

    But the bombings never went off as planned. The cell members had been under surveillance for months after German police received a tip-off from U.S. intelligence services. Then, just before they were to strike, police raided the men's hideout in the central region of Sauerland and found dozens of detonators and 700 liters of concentrated hydrogen peroxide, a chemical used in hair bleach, which, when mixed with other chemicals, can be used to make explosives. Investigators said the men had enough explosive materials to build bombs equivalent to 880 pounds of dynamite — more powerful than the bombs used in the Madrid and London terror attacks.

    The leader of the group was Gelowicz, who was born in Munich and converted to Islam when he was 16. Though he became a devout Muslim, he appeared to lead the life of a normal teenager — he even played quarterback on an American football team. Things changed, however, when he started visiting an Islamic center in the southern city of Neu-Ulm and found himself outraged over the photos of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq and the terror suspects being held at Guantanamo Bay. "This Islamic center was a meeting place for young Muslims and they felt a sense of belonging and security there," says Thomas Wandinger, a security expert at Munich's Institute of Politics and International Studies.
    (See pictures from Abu Ghraib.)

    Gelowicz's lawyers say the catalyst for his transformation to extremism was apparently Khaled el-Masri, a German of Lebanese descent, who prayed at the Islamic center with him. El-Masri claims he had been abducted by the CIA in Macedonia in 2003 and taken to Afghanistan, where he was held for five months on suspicion of having links to al-Qaeda. (His detention was later revealed to be a case of mistaken identity and the case became the subject of a Bundestag inquiry.) "Gelowicz told the court that 'The Americans have brought the war to my mosque,'" defense attorney Dirk Uden tells TIME. "Gelowicz was obsessed by the idea to fight against the war on terror — he wanted jihad either in Iraq or Chechnya, wherever he could."

    During the trial, Gelowicz admitted he had been a member of the al-Qaeda-linked, Pakistan-based terrorist group, Islamic Jihad Union, and that in 2006, he had traveled to an IJU training camp in northwestern Pakistan on the border with Afghanistan where he received training in weapons and explosives and met Schneider, who later became one of the other operatives in the Sauerland cell. On their return to Germany, Gelowicz's lawyer says the men discussed a number of high-profile U.S. targets, like Ramstein Air Base. "They had clear goals — they wanted to kill U.S. soldiers in Germany and they wanted German troops to pull out of Afghanistan," Uden says.

    Counterterrorism experts say the trial confirmed for the first time the existence of an IJU cell on German soil. "The IJU showed it was determined to plot terrorist attacks in Europe," says Guido Steinberg, an analyst at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs in Berlin. And, according to Steinberg, the number of homegrown extremists has only increased since then. He estimates that in 2009, around 40 jihadists traveled from Germany to terrorist training camps in Pakistan. "The challenge for the German authorities is to reach out to these young men and small Islamist groups as early as possible," Wandinger says. "We need to get into the heads of potential terrorists and analyse their motives."

    The confessions of the men in the Sauerland cell were so thorough and detailed that even prosecutors were surprised. But did they regret their actions? Gelowicz's lawyer points out that his client said during the trial "luckily nothing happened," seeming to be relieved their terror plot had been thwarted. Luckily, Germany did avert a major terrorist attack — this time. The question is whether the authorities have learned any lessons to prevent the next homegrown plot from coming to fruition.


    The talk about a second 9/11 is probably a media hyperbole. But still these men plotted to bomb the American Ramstein base or discos frequented by American troops and thereby killing hundreds of innocent people and only got 12 years in a luxury prison. Absolutely disgusting.

  2. #2
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    They were young disaffected men who were radicalized and turned into Islamist militants
    Poor guys. Totally lacking the ability for rational thought, no free will. No ability to be productive.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    Poor guys. Totally lacking the ability for rational thought, no free will. No ability to be productive.
    The article actually describes the process by which at least one of them was radicalized. Makes sense, actually. Painting people as zombie-monsters who have always been such doesn't really do anybody any good. The plain fact is that these men were reacting either to their own personal experiences or their perception of injustice of American policies. It doesn't justify bombing an American base, obviously, but it does give weight to the idea of analyzing cause in effect in employing policy.

    They almost certainly should be receiving more than 12 years maximum, but the most valuable time would be that which is spent de-radicalizing them, if that's even possible.
    Last edited by motiv-8; March 04, 2010 at 03:48 PM.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  4. #4

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    I had my new car radicalized to prevent rusting.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Its one thing if you were a kid, but apparently the one guy was in his late 20's. There is little excuse for being radicalized beyond that you want to be a radical. Its not like magic brainwashing.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Its one thing if you were a kid, but apparently the one guy was in his late 20's. There is little excuse for being radicalized beyond that you want to be a radical. Its not like magic brainwashing.
    Anybody can become radicalized at any age by any sufficient correlation of events and experiences. For someone who likes to pride themselves on a scientific foundation you are being shockingly dismissive of realities here. Your tea-party pals provide enough evidence of what I'm talking about.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  7. #7

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Anybody can become radicalized at any age by any sufficient correlation of events and experiences. For someone who likes to pride themselves on a scientific foundation you are being shockingly dismissive of realities here. Your tea-party pals provide enough evidence of what I'm talking about.
    And what is 'radicalization' to you?
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    And what is 'radicalization' to you?
    I am SO glad you asked, I've been itching to do this for a while
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    I am SO glad you asked, I've been itching to do this for a while
    Well that sure explains those tea party, they are just like someone willing to commit mass murder of civilians. I asked what you thought of it but if you dont' have thoughts of your own I can't say I'm surprised.

    Whatever, lets try to get into an adult head for why he decided to 'take action', yea that will be useful, I'm sure if we understood why people wanted to mass murder for allah it would all be better.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Its one thing if you were a kid, but apparently the one guy was in his late 20's. There is little excuse for being radicalized beyond that you want to be a radical. Its not like magic brainwashing.
    Have you forgotten three thousands years of human history?

    It is actually very easy to brainwash, especially an un-educated person.




  11. #11

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    12 years for treason? Good idea, they arent going to be radicals when they leave, they will be reformed secularists!
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    only 12? LOL.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    ll that sure explains those tea party, they are just like someone willing to commit mass murder of civilians.
    Nice strawman, chief.
    I asked what you thought of it but if you dont' have thoughts of your own I can't say I'm surprised.
    This is like criticizing someone for using a dictionary. How pedantic of you to get mad at the fact that I relied on standard terminology rather than giving a personalized disposition that you would surely dispute in order to side-track discussion. I guess I know your style too well.
    Whatever, lets try to get into an adult head for why he decided to 'take action', yea that will be useful,
    Yeah, actually, it would, because he didn't just come up with these ideas out of thin air. If you'd bother to read the full article quoted in the OP, you'd know that.
    I'm sure if we understood why people wanted to mass murder for allah it would all be better.
    Willing ignorance is well-served for people who don't want to question their own notions of self-validity.
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  14. #14
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    the most valuable time would be that which is spent de-radicalizing them,
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Sure, I guess that works, if we wish to debase ourselves. Every now and then I like to pretend that we have better values.

    Actually, that was pretty ironic xcorps given that the ring-leader of the plot was radicalized in large part due to Abu Ghraib where we all know prisoners were subjected to electro-shock "treatment."
    Last edited by motiv-8; March 04, 2010 at 05:10 PM.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  16. #16

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Il-Principe View Post
    http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...969692,00.html

    [/SPOILER]

    The talk about a second 9/11 is probably a media hyperbole. But still these men plotted to bomb the American Ramstein base or discos frequented by American troops and thereby killing hundreds of innocent people and only got 12 years in a luxury prison. Absolutely disgusting.
    Shades of the Heathrow Bomb plot here.


    I presume jail time was reduced as a result of a guilty plea, but as a comparison, two of the Heathrow plotters Assad Sarwar and Tanvir Hussain will serve at least at least 36 and 32 years respectively
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    ...
    I presume jail time was reduced as a result of a guilty plea, but as a comparison, two of the Heathrow plotters Assad Sarwar and Tanvir Hussain will serve at least at least 36 and 32 years respectively
    In Germany a life sentence can only be about 15-20 years. No prisoner can be punished for a "real" life sentence. However our judicial system knows a neat little term called "Sicherheitsverwahrung" which allows a court to incarcerate a criminal indefinetely if it becomes obvious that he remains a danger to society. This is then not considered a punishment anymore but the necessity to remove dangerous individuals from society that cannot or failed to reintegrate into society.

    The german justice codes give alot of leeway to the criminal to prove himself, but if you end up on that list you will most likely die in prison (not that many end up there, but still).

    Fun part: A court can judge on this based on how someone behaves in prison so if any of those terrorists shows indictions of continueing their terrorist ideology while in prison a persecutor can drag them in front of a court on that issue and then they won't get out anymore at all.

    It's kind of a great motivation not to appear on the court's radar anymore.

    That said they got off easy because RAF terrorists got extra heavy prison sentences which were kind of contrary to what usually would have been dealt out (but this involved actual terrorist acts and murders not "just" intent ).
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    12 years of shanking is alot. Who wants to be the traitor in a German prison? Good luck to those guys, and thank god US's press corps did not have influence among their people.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    I loved the part where the police was on to them for quite some time but wanted more evidence, so they broke in their apartment to water down their chemical-bomb to buy more time.

    Sounds Hollywoodish
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Il-Principe's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Islamic Terrorists sentenced to 12 Years in Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    I loved the part where the police was on to them for quite some time but wanted more evidence, so they broke in their apartment to water down their chemical-bomb to buy more time.

    Sounds Hollywoodish
    It was one of the most expensive police operations in the history of the BRD and in the end it paid off. Still I got the impression that these terrorists were essentially amateurs. Yes, they're fanatics committed to cause as much damage as possible, but they lacked the means to do so. The fact that they couldn't distinguish between effective and harmless bombs speaks for itself...

    Luckily most terrorists are amateurs. Contrary to Hollywood movies it's not so easy to build and successfully plant bombs. I read somewhere that the first IRA generations lost 200 men, who accidentally blew themselves up. Later generations were more experienced though.

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