Thracian civilization and greek civilization

[bushbush]

branched out from this thread based on discussion from other members.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=336310

The Argument:

The archeology left behind shows that the Thracians were on a level of civilization somewhere almost reaching the Greeks, maybe even at that level. Minus an alphabet which the Greeks got from the Phonecians. Maybe if it wasn't for them not even the Greeks would have written anything down and we'd be ignorantly talking about those "uncivilized Greeks who left us nothing."

Sources so far:
1. "The Thracian Civilization
By Rossitza Ohridska-Olson

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The last few years spectacular discoveries by archaeologists on the territory of Bulgaria unearthing treasures, mystic burial rites and monumental temples attracted the attention of the world. News about gold weapons produced with technology unknown to the rest of the world at that time, precious jewelry pre-dating the Trojan war and religious complexes serving thousands of pilgrims before the Athenian temples were built, excited not only scientists, but also attracted the attention of the general public to a forgotten European civilization called “The Thracian Civilization”.

This was the civilization appearing roughly around the end of the Vth and the beginning IVth Millennium B.C.E. It was created by the Thracians – a unified name for the people living on the territory of modern day Bulgaria, Northern Greece, West Turkey, Romania, Moldova, South Ukraine, Macedonia and Serbia.

The first written record about the Thracians is by Homer, who describes in the Iliad the arrival of the Thracian King Rhesus (from where Royal came English through the Latin “Rex”): “His chariot is bedight with silver and gold, and he has brought his marvelous golden amour, of the rarest workmanship - too splendid for any mortal man to carry, and meet only for the gods”. Herodotus wrote: “The Thracians were the most numerous people after the Indians. The Thracians are differently named in each region but the manners and customs of the whole nationality remain just the same everywhere.” Plato joined the “fan club” talking in “The Republic” that the Thracians were passionate and spiritual and their religious processions for Bendis (the Greeks identified Bendis with Artemis, the Romans called her Diana) were more beautiful than the Athenian ones.

The Thracians had their own religion, now called by the scientists “Thracian Orphism”. For them, the life cycle started and never finished – the birth and death were followed unconditionally by the afterlife. The Thracian Kings, warrior-priests of the Orphic cult, consecrated during mystical rituals, created magnificent artifacts, which we now see in many museums of Bulgaria. Perceived by us as treasures of gold, silver and platinum, those objects were the ritual relics of a cult dedicated to a constant aspiration for immortality.

In constant contacts with the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks, Persians, Phoenicians, and later with the Romans, the Thracians transferred part of their religious believes to other peoples in the Mediterranean. Dionysus, the god of wine and the patron of the theater (Bacchus in Roman times), and Bendis came from the Thracian Pantheon. Orpheus, "the father of songs", represented the unified symbol of the Thracian king-priests, later became part of the Greek mythology with the legend of Orpheus and Eurydice.

The Thracians were also famous in the ancient world with their superb craftsmanship and advanced weaponry. In constant military conflicts (on the side of the Trojans, in the Trojan War, on the side of the Athenians during the Persian Wars), they mastered the ability of training excellent warriors. Spartacus, the famous gladiator and rebel against the Roman Empire, was born in the Roman province of Thrace, in the city of Sandanski, modern day Bulgaria.

The Thracian women, as Herodotus describes them, were free and independent, at least until their wedding day. Maenads, muses, priestesses and women-warriors were part of legends and myths, surviving until present times in folk fables in Bulgaria and other countries. While visiting Bulgaria, don’t be fouled by the naivety of a village “granny” or a bubbly maiden: they probably still go on the night of the summer equinox to collect healing herbs in the forests around their parish. Or they might still dance in the night of 21st of May on the burning coals – the ancient tradition of a Anestinaria, believed to be part of Dionysus mysteries.

The continuity of the Thracian culture and traditions did not stop with the disappearance of the Thracians in late 6th-7th C. A.D. under the massive assimilations by the Slavs, Goths and other northern tribes. The Christians transformed the Thracian Horseman (Thracian Hero) into St. George fighting the dragon and we will see its icons almost in every church in Bulgaria. The Bulgarians and the Slavs continued to worship the wine and the Epicurean lifestyle, up to modern-day Bulgaria.

Most of the Thracian Civilization is still to be discovered by the scientists. More sensational news are awaiting to reveal further secrets of this culture. By serving as an intermediary of ideas, technologies and artistic traditions between the East and the West during ancient times, the Thracian civilization also greatly contributed to the continuity between the antiquity and the modern ages, which makes our contact with this culture relevant to all of us.

September 2008"

2. http://www.culturalrealms.com/

----------------

your view on this please.

[Augustus Lucifer]

We sure seem to have a lot of threads pertaining to Thrace.

I'm not sure I'd call gold weapons an advancement. For one it utilizes a precious resource, and for another gold is not an ideal material for fashioning weapons due to its malleability. An ideal weapon would only be malleable in a forge at very high temperatures. Then again I'm no blacksmith, so I may not know the impact of malleability on durability full well. Assuming this is the case though, I don't suspect others would have bothered making gold into weapons, even if they knew how, except as a show of wealth.

It's interesting that the first source says the Thracians were "in constant contact with the ... Phoenicians" and the argument seems to suggest that the Thracians were lacking an alphabet the Greeks had received from the same Phoenicians. If this contact was consistent, one has to wonder why the alphabet was not transmitted through it to bridge that gap. It also touches on "serving as an intermediary of ideas, technologies and artistic traditions between the East and the West", but doesn't elaborate as to what it means when it states 'East'. What we consider 'East' nowadays is generally associated with Asian cultures unless clarified with a word such as 'Europe' or 'Middle', so I'm not sure what to make of that.

With the second source I assume you meant to link to this article. I'm not sure any of those archaeological finds can be extrapolated in the way suggested.

So I suppose it depends on what is meant by 'civilization'. If it's simply standards of living and technology, the case could probably be made. We remember the Greeks in history though due not only to their longevity and indomitable culture, but also their transmission of ideas. This does take root in language, and without the writings much of our knowledge of them would be lost, but it's hard to get a 2,000 year old mummy to tell you what ideas he had that he didn't or couldn't write down, so the archaeological evidence doesn't suggest much in that regard.

[hellheaven1987]

Interesting. I know Thracians were definately not uncivilized at the time of Xenophon, whose description about his campaign in Thracia were interesting. However, anything before that is unclear to me, and it seems Thracian civilization before that was in quite similar style of Celtic civilization, which was definately not uncivilized (well, Caesar clearly did not think Celts were uncivilized).

[CiviC]

Dacians were a branch of Thracians and in time they developped a separate ethnicity and culture.

While not having a civilisation as advanced as Greeks they were ahead most "Barbarians"

They had an original religion, the Zalmoxian religion, after the name of a religious reformer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmoxi...oxian_Religion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zalmoxian Religion

In fact, the Zalmoxian religion differentiated the Getae from the other Thracians, at the time of Herodotus.[6],[7].
Religion was characterized by monotheism, aniconism (including the interdiction of writing), the important role of the music, the cyclic resurrection" of the supreme god, the rites connected to immortality and the inititation
Monotheism.
"...and they do not believe that there is any god but their own" (Herodotus) [7]. Ancient sources don’t present any other God of Getae-Dacians than Zalmoxis[3]. Among others, Vasile Pârvan, Jean Coman, R.Pettazzon, E.Rohde and S. Paliaga consider that Getae -Dacians religion is monotheistic Others consider it henotheistic Aniconism
was a specific characteristic of the Getae-Dacian religion. This trait is similar to Judaism and Islamism.The only exception is the one of the so-called deity the "Thracian Knight" under the Greek Influence. After conquest (after 107 AD) it appears some representations of the Romans assimilated local deities (see Diana-Bendis)The total interdiction of visual representation included the writing. This is similar to the Druids' doctrine (Hippolytus said that the druids learned Pythagorean philosophy from Zalmoxis)Such an interdiction couldn’t function without a strong religious substratum, conventionally named Zalmoxian religionThis mentality survived until the 17th century within "Jus Valachicum" (Lex lachorm) a juridical and traditional system always oral[8] Immortality
"They think that they do not really die, but that when they depart this life they go to Zalmoxis"[7]The ritual of sending a messenger to Zalmoxis (every five years) is explained by this belief. "The messages are given while the man is still alive"[7] Music and dance
Music and dance were an important part of Zalmoxis teachings and this corresponds to the special importance given by Getae-Dacians to the music.Zalmoxis gave his name to a particular type of singing and dancing (Hesych) Initiation It is similar to the Pythagorean doctrine
Chthonic character It was an essential characteristic of a religious system that existed before Indo-Europeans, as expressed by Marija Gimbutas and Sorin Paliga [3]

This are the remains of their main sanctuary





This the reconstructed immage of a tarabostes - a Dacian noble warrior

[SigniferOne]

Of course, anything pertaining to Thracians or Dacians can never be considered uncivilized. I heard there was a parchment found where they drew a spaceship, and a poem where they discussed the heliocentric theory of the universe.

[rez]

I don't see how anything mentioned comes remotely close to the achievements of Athens (or most ancient people for that matter).

Also

In constant military conflicts (on the side of the Trojans, in the Trojan War, on the side of the Athenians during the Persian Wars)

lol.

What a bunch of useless dick waving.

[SigniferOne]

I would emphasize this part too:

In constant military conflicts (on the side of the Trojans, in the Trojan War, on the side of the Athenians during the Persian Wars)

[bushbush]

I don't see how anything mentioned comes remotely close to the achievements of Athens (or most ancient people for that matter).

me neither, the sources are questionable at best.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

The Thracians were also famous in the ancient world with their superb craftsmanship and advanced weaponry

What?

A.M. Snodgrass, "Arms and Armor of the Greeks":

"The main part was an exquisite bronze cuirass...It constitutes an amazing accomplishment for any period of Antiquity, but its appearance, as it occurred, in the beginnings of the history of metal armour is almost unbelievable. Its most surprising, perhaps, resemblance is borne to the pieces that are dated at the final days of metal armour, like the one in Musee d' Artillerie in Paris, which was constructed for Luis XIV more than 3000 years later."

"There are good reasons to accept that this type of helmet was the one called by Greeks 'Corinthian'... From a technical standpoint, this helmet is so advanced that it deserves a closer look. Forging a full cover for the head out of a single sheet of metal required outstanding craftsmanship on behalf of the metallurgist. In the 17th century AD the weaponsmiths seem to have lost this skill and resorted to constructing helmets out of two or more pieces joined overhead, while even a modern Greek craftsman in 1939, who was reproducing an exact copy of this helmet, found severe difficulty in forging the rear part of it without leaving a large opening in the forehead...So efficient was this helmet, that over 2000 years later its pattern would be copied quite accurately by a type of helmet found in Italy of the 15th century."

That's what it means to be a superb craftsman and advanced weaponmaker, not to carry wicker shields (pelte) and wear leather caps (Phrygian pilos), which were distinctive Thracian pieces of equipment.

The archeology left behind shows that the Thracians were on a level of civilization somewhere almost reaching the Greeks, maybe even at that level. Minus an alphabet which the Greeks got from the Phonecians. Maybe if it wasn't for them not even the Greeks would have written anything down and we'd be ignorantly talking about those "uncivilized Greeks who left us nothing."

Even if one excludes the written records, the large centers of urban life, the Hippodamean city-planning, the aqueducts, the massive fortifications of Gladenmeuer type, the superb weaponry and armor, the sculptures and frescoes, the surgery tools, the grand temples, the theaters, the gumnasia, the stadia, the Mycenaean tumuli, the monetarised nature of economy, to name a few, which can all be attested via archaeology, are more than enough to classify the ancient Greeks as an advanced civilization. Just a glimpse at the Parthenon or the Charioteer would suffice.
And it is highly improbable that the Thracians, who didn't feature any of these manifestations of civilized life, would still be able to devote themselves to more sophisticated pursuits such as poetry, commedy and tragedy, philosophy, political and social studies, inquires into nature, mathematics, athletic competitions, ship building, siege engines, invention of consensual forms of government and so on, which, indeed, require written speech in order to be immortalised.

I also think it speaks volumes about the article's level of scholarship that a poet's (Homer's) description on the armor of a mythical Thracian king is taken at face value, but no mention is being made to the fact that an established historian like Herodotus portrays a picture of Thracian lifestyle as that of constant drunkenness and tribal warfare. Last but not least, I hate this kind of argument or remark with clear underlying implications (or rather excuse):

Most of the Thracian Civilization is still to be discovered by the scientists

So is the Colossus of Rhodes, the partially golden and partially ebony statues of Zeus in Olympia and Athena in Athens, the counterparts of the Anticythera mechanism, the volumes upon volumes in the libraries of Alexandria and Pergamum, most Minoan and Mycenean palaces, the greater part of the work of Archimedes and Ctesibius, the steam engines and automats of Hero etc etc. Sorry, but if anything, it is the advanced civilizations of past ages that suffer injustice by our inherent inability to acquire full insight into them, for this obscures a multitude of noteworthy accomplishments.

[Ludicus]

... but no mention is being made to the fact that an established historian like Herodotus portrays a picture of Thracian lifestyle as that of constant drunkenness and tribal warfare. Last but not least, I hate this kind of argument or remark with clear underlying implications (or rather excuse)...
"Most of the Thracian Civilization is still to be discovered by the scientists"

I agree with you on that. But,to be fair, I would like to point out that the some burial tombs (Kazanlack/Svestary) are in the World Heritage List.
The List

[Carpathian Wolf]

Well Timo we also have to understand that Thracian warfare was a bit different than that of the Greeks. Thracians preferred using lighter equipped soldiers that were much more mobile. The use of cavalry and archery was extensive at a time when the Greeks simply scoffed at such a thing until it became evident that it had it's advantages. I think Ovidius gives great insight on the Thracian life. In one portion he speaks about how the sheep are more afraid of wars than wolves and that the shepherd sings with two flutes glued together with resin while he keeps a bow slung over his shoulder. That is to say even the most stable times in Thracian history are not much better than the most unstable times in Greek times. The Thracians were highly sought after as mercenaries by the Greeks for a reason and whenever the Thracians were united for example under Burebista, Greek cities fell to them. Even the Diadochi in the Balkans suffered humiliating defeats at the hands of the northern Thracians. Sarmizegetusa along with the various davas, and Thracian tombs show a much higher level of sophistication than previously thought. They were in no doubt superiors to the Celts, Germanics and Iberians for example, other 'barbarians' contemporary to their existence.

We also have to admit that there are many things (and I say this as someone who has partial Greek lineage) that the Greeks are too fast to claim as their own that were really Thracian. Not that I want to start a full length discussion about this but due to political clout, and various other factors, archeologists in Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey and FRY have not had the ability or the willingness to research their ancient archeology on their lands with as much gusto.

http://bulgarianhistory.blogspot.com/

I think the article over states its point a bit too harshly and I don't agree with everything but it does make a valid point.

[CiviC]

Thracians/Dacians were superb craftmans

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Thracians/Dacians were superb craftmans

If you say so. What exactly makes these helmets superb? The embeded decorations? Because from a standpoint of utility they don't seem to follow the shape of the head that good (meaning extra weight) and I have seen other types of helmets offering protection to the nose and jaw as well.

Well Timo we also have to understand that Thracian warfare was a bit different than that of the Greeks. Thracians preferred using lighter equipped soldiers that were much more mobile. The use of cavalry and archery was extensive at a time when the Greeks simply scoffed at such a thing until it became evident that it had it's advantages.

Well, some specific regions in Greece did have an ancient cavalry (Thessaly) and archery (Crete) traditions. Overall it is true that the Thracians produced some of the best light infantry in antiquity and the article's statement that Thracians produced excellent warriors is also true. It is also worth noting that during the 5th century Thracian warfare exerted significant influence over Greek warfare, which becomes evident around the turn of the century with the introduction of peltasts and later glimpes of it can be traced in the Iphekrateans. However, you can't deny the fact that Thracian's technological handicap in comparison with other cultures forced them to restrain the epicenter of their fighting style around raids, ambuscades and 'feudal' (= nobles+masses) warfare, which was an evolutionary stage all cultures go through, but some other nations overcame at an early era. This technological disparity is one of the main reasons why the Thracians, as most 'barbarians', would not come to be a major player on the international stage, although they had the manpower and the aptitutde in war to do it, whereas the Greeks and Romans could project a degree of power disproportionate to their numbers for centuries.

The Thracians were highly sought after as mercenaries by the Greeks for a reason...

Yes, that they produced an excellent specialist unit of light infantry in the form of peltatsts and at a later point the romphaia-bearers. And this is also why Greek heavy infantry in the form of hoplites was highly sought at times by the Thracian nobles such as Seuthes in 399.

...and whenever the Thracians were united for example under Burebista, Greek cities fell to them.

Greek cities which comprised isolated enclaves at the coast of the Black Sea. That is not much of an accomplishment, all of Greek coastal colonies fell at some point sooner or later (I mean prior to the subjugation of Greece itself to the Romans) to the inhabitants of the inlands and only very powerfull cities like Syracuse or Massilia could withstand the inevitable for long centuries. The Celts of the kingdom of Tylis for example dominated Thrace and reduced Greek colonies to vassalage for two generations in the mid 3rd century. But this works on the opposite way as well. I could remark that the natives were so weak in comparison as to be forced to tolerate the presence of numerically vastly inferior Greek colonists exploiting their ancestral lands for centuries.

Even the Diadochi in the Balkans suffered humiliating defeats at the hands of the northern Thracians

I wouldn't call an ambush a humiliating defeat. At any rate, sure, the Diadochoi were not invincible and even before the Hellenistic era the Thracians had eliminated an Athenian expeditionary force in Dabriskos, but defeats would be suffered by Greek factions at on point or another at the hands of all people they waged war against. It's not something that makes specifically the Thracians stand out and it doesn't even the overall 'score'.

We also have to admit that there are many things (and I say this as someone who has partial Greek lineage) that the Greeks are too fast to claim as their own that were really Thracian.

Are or were? And like what?

I think the article over states its point a bit too harshly and I don't agree with everything but it does make a valid point.

I never read blogs and I don't trust sites on history in general, internet is barely something more than a tool for propaganda these days. If the guy cites some serious scholarly work, please bring it here.

[diegis]

If you say so. What exactly makes these helmets superb? The embeded decorations? Because from a standpoint of utility they don't seem to follow the shape of the head that good (meaning extra weight) and I have seen other types of helmets offering protection to the nose and jaw as well.




Well, some specific regions in Greece did have an ancient cavalry (Thessaly) and archery (Crete) traditions. Overall it is true that the Thracians produced some of the best light infantry in antiquity and the article's statement that Thracians produced excellent warriors is also true. It is also worth noting that during the 5th century Thracian warfare exerted significant influence over Greek warfare, which becomes evident around the turn of the century with the introduction of peltasts and later glimpes of it can be traced in the Iphekrateans. However, you can't deny the fact that Thracian's technological handicap in comparison with other cultures forced them to restrain the epicenter of their fighting style around raids, ambuscades and 'feudal' (= nobles+masses) warfare, which was an evolutionary stage all cultures go through, but some other nations overcame at an early era. This technological disparity is one of the main reasons why the Thracians, as most 'barbarians', would not come to be a major player on the international stage, although they had the manpower and the aptitutde in war to do it, whereas the Greeks and Romans could project a degree of power disproportionate to their numbers for centuries.


Yes, that they produced an excellent specialist unit of light infantry in the form of peltatsts and at a later point the romphaia-bearers. And this is also why Greek heavy infantry in the form of hoplites was highly sought at times by the Thracian nobles such as Seuthes in 399.


Greek cities which comprised isolated enclaves at the coast of the Black Sea. That is not much of an accomplishment, all of Greek coastal colonies fell at some point sooner or later (I mean prior to the subjugation of Greece itself to the Romans) to the inhabitants of the inlands and only very powerfull cities like Syracuse or Massilia could withstand the inevitable for long centuries. The Celts of the kingdom of Tylis for example dominated Thrace and reduced Greek colonies to vassalage for two generations in the mid 3rd century. But this works on the opposite way as well. I could remark that the natives were so weak in comparison as to be forced to tolerate the presence of numerically vastly inferior Greek colonists exploiting their ancestral lands for centuries.


I wouldn't call an ambush a humiliating defeat. At any rate, sure, the Diadochoi were not invincible and even before the Hellenistic era the Thracians had eliminated an Athenian expeditionary force in Dabriskos, but defeats would be suffered by Greek factions at on point or another at the hands of all people they waged war against. It's not something that makes specifically the Thracians stand out and it doesn't even the overall 'score'.



Are or were? And like what?


I never read blogs and I don't trust sites on history in general, internet is barely something more than a tool for propaganda these days. If the guy cites some serious scholarly work, please bring it here.

Hmm, from another stand point of utility helmets are well done, to protect the top of the head from hits of falx (tip of the curved blade) or from battle axes over the shield. Romans reinforced too their helmets to adapt them somehow to that dacian sword. Ofcourse, greeks doesnt know/use such weapons.

Getae-Dacians (north Thracians) defeated several times the Greeks (Zopyrion, Lisimachus twice), and stopped the expansion of hellenistic world south of Danube, in Balkan (Haemus) mountains area. Greek cities on Black Sea payed "protection taxes" to local dacian rulers, and in Burebista period was incorporated directly in Dacian kingdom (some of them conquered by force).

Dacians was very good at medicine, being praised even in greek writings for that (and archeology prouved this too) and on astronomy, as Jordanes said and as the same archeology prouved (the dacian calendar from the Sanctuary of Sarmisegetuza is more exact then Roman iulian one), but, unlike greeks and romans their society was focused more on spirituality (and war who was conected with this spirituality) then on material achivements. The most developments was done in military fields (as it is today too anyway in the world), dacians being the only ones outside the greco-roman world who used war machines for ex (and not just those simple rams but balistas and other too)., created a special designted sword to fight against close ranks of enemies equiped with big shields (Falx), used poisoned arrows, and builded up in the mountains impresive fortreses. It wasnt easy to bring huge blocks of stones, perfectly carved, from 30 km distance, and go up at 1200 m altitude with them. Those fortreses had water pipes and sewers, and towns had paved roads too, not too diferent then a town from greeks or romans.

As religion, Dacians had either just one god, Zalmoxes, or even if they agree that exist some other gods too, they recognized as the true and supreme god just one, their god Zalmoxis, compared with the multitude of gods and belifes from greek world. He had a religion of misteries who preach the imortality (or teach them how to become imortals) and who was an original one (even if having some similarities with Pythagora doctrine).

I cant say Dacians was at the level of development of Romans, or even of Greeks (but as military was over greeks) but wasnt too far either, and obviously was more advanced then Celts and Germans.

[Seleucos of Olympia]

I don't know how seriously I can take even the basic premise of a blog that complains that Mycenean artifacts are labeled as "Greek". I guess the writer missed the memo on the deciphering of Linear B half a century ago...

[rez]

but, unlike greeks and romans their society was focused more on spirituality (and war who was conected with this spirituality) then on material achivements.

Well thats a rather handy coincidence.

[diegis]

Well thats a rather handy coincidence.

This is a quote from Julian the Apostate, who write about Traian and what he said about his deeds:

"I alone i ventured to attack the tribes beyond the Danube and i subdued the Getae, the most warlike race that ever existed, which is due partly to their physical courage, partly to their doctrines they have adopted from their admired Zamolxis. For they believe that they do not die but only change their place of abode, and they meet death more readily then other men undertake a journey."

So, when you believe that this world is just a temporary home, and you will go to the other world for a eternal life of joys (especialy if you are a brave warrior) you dont care that much about material achivements in this world.

[SigniferOne]

This is a quote from Julian the Apostate, who write about Traian and what he said about his deeds:

"I alone i ventured to attack the tribes beyond the Danube and i subdued the Getae, the most warlike race that ever existed, which is due partly to their physical courage, partly to their doctrines they have adopted from their admired Zamolxis. For they believe that they do not die but only change their place of abode, and they meet death more readily then other men undertake a journey."

Are you aware that Julian is engaging in a rhetorical exercise? Because in that debate Trajan loses to Alexander and Caesar, so clearly these werent 'the most warlike race that ever existed'.

So, when you believe that this world is just a temporary home, and you will go to the other world for a eternal life of joys (especialy if you are a brave warrior) you dont care that much about material achivements in this world.

Which yet did not cause difficulty for any nation or commander in antiquity.

[diegis]

Are you aware that Julian is engaging in a rhetorical exercise? Because in that debate Trajan loses to Alexander and Caesar, so clearly these werent 'the most warlike race that ever existed'.

Yes, i am aware that Julian writing is a rhetorical and fictional one writed in a humorous note. But i say that Julian uses there the infos and believes from that era about those emperors and their deeds (or enemies). It is not that he invented facts or new ideas about them. Its a known fact as well that romans used the biggest army ever deployed against a foreign enemy in their wars with dacians. And that roman soldiers was not afraid at all by parthians arrows after they met the dacian curved swords in battle. In ancient Rome was the saying "to be happier then Augustus and better then Traian" (aprox. quote), and Traian was called "optimus princeps" not without a reasons. He defeated the last strongest enemies of Rome, and extend to maximum the empire borders bring him to the peak of its power. Caesar just had a much better PR and his works (and ones about him) survived to this days, but Traian's ones was lost unfortunately (as well most ones about dacians). Julian is not the only one anyway who write about the Dacians/Getae and their religion and "love for war".

As well, semi-mythical or real, Orpheus was a thracian who had profound influences in greek world. What i wanted to point out is that dacians (and thracians) had a distinctive culture in many parts not lower or weaker compared with greco-roman one, and was a civilization more developed then germanic and in many parts even the celtic one.

[diegis]

Which yet did not cause difficulty for any nation or commander in antiquity.

Not sure i understand what thats suppose to mean?