Invincible units

[JohnGlave]

Hello everyone,

I'm playing as the High Elves on Very Hard/Very Hard. Isengard attacked one of my cities, I set my troops in the usual defensive positions (light elven archers on the walls, with my elven infantry behind the gate). After they broke down the gate, some Uruk Raiders ran through and attacked my infantry; but after ages of fighting (their general went down as well), very few (about 10) of my infantry are dead and around 160+ snagas and uruks lie dead at my gates (the rest routed).

On the walls some more Uruk Raiders landed via a siege tower, I had two units of light elven archers; but again after some long fighting the uruks were dead and my archers survived (they killed nearly all the archers, but the archers still won).

I'm playing on the normal unit scale so no walls glitches, or anything. I would prefer a bit more challenge than this at least on very hard. Does anyone know a solution to this?

[Lordinquisitor]

We are talking about elves; The first of their kind were strong enough to kill Balrogs and Fingolfin wounded morgoth many times.. Their descendants are weaker, yet still very, very, strong.

So your units are as strong as they should be. And most of the times you will win heroic victories with the elves- Though, you have to since one defeat could weaken your numbers too much.

The elves are supposed to be an easy faction; But if you want an harder campaign just wage war against the Orcs of the Misty mountains. Eventually the Balrog and Trolls might pose more an challenge.

[JohnGlave]

I see what you mean, but I'm using the worst Elven Infantry (they're called that even though they're militia). 200 Uruks and Snagas shouldn't be able to just bring down 10 of them. I'll try your suggestion of attacking OMM, I've left them in peace for sometime.

[Vhaelor]

We are talking about elves; The first of their kind were strong enough to kill Balrogs and Fingolfin wounded morgoth many times.. Their descendants are weaker, yet still very, very, strong.

Actually the elves themselves were probably the only race in Middle Earth not to be weakened by the passage of time, unlike the Númenorean descendants (the dúnedain) and the dwarves. The Dwarves lost a lot of their lore, power, people, knowledge and most likely ale also when they lost Khazad-Dûm, and Gimli even mentions that some things they can never forge as well as the dwarven smithmasters of old.

The Dúnedain...well..take a look only at the decline of Gondor before the defeat of Sauron.

The elves however were however not weakned, not in the sense that the race faltered like the dúnedain had in the south. Those elves that were "strong enough to kill Balrogs" were those of the kind that sailed with Fëanor and marched with Fingolfin, the exiled Noldor.

Those who however were lingering in Middle Earth, the Sindar/wood elves of Lothlórien and their wood elf brethren in Mirkwood were however not as advanced as their Noldor cousins, nor did they possess the same prowess in arms, nor wisdom as the exiled Noldor.

So lore wise, no, the elves did not decline in the prowess of arms or strength of spirit. The only thing they DID decline in was numbers, as the elven population has slowly but steadily declined over the ages since the fall of Gil-Galad at the end of the Second Age.

Also, elves killing Balrogs. Let's just say that was NOT a common ocurrance, only a few were strong enough to withstand a Balrog and they normally lost their lives in the process if they attempted to slay one.

Ah well, I love lore

[muller227]

Elves are indeed very powerful especially those of high spirit which is not exclusively the province of the Eldar of Aman. Elrond and Gil-Galad are the most notable of later Generations not of Aman. Only two ever killed Balrogs (Etchelion and Glorfindel) that were written about, though three withstood many balrogs for a long time before going down in defeat(Feanor, Maedhros and Fingon). Among men Tuor in Early writings killed some but Tolkien later rewrote that and took that out. The deeds of Glorfindel and Etchelion he left as certain lore. Very few Elves indeed were a match for a Balrog. Later I think only Galadriel could have defeated one though the method of that defeat is hard to imagine. In her Early years she was an excellent hand to hand fighter, killing many Noldor in the Battle of the Havens defending her Mother's people. Her presence likely explains its restraint, that and Melkor not being around. No Balrog ever served Sauron, they were near equals in Angbands service.

[Seleukos_I.]

Actually the elves themselves were probably the only race in Middle Earth not to be weakened by the passage of time, unlike the Númenorean descendants (the dúnedain) and the dwarves. The Dwarves lost a lot of their lore, power, people, knowledge and most likely ale also when they lost Khazad-Dûm, and Gimli even mentions that some things they can never forge as well as the dwarven smithmasters of old.

The Dúnedain...well..take a look only at the decline of Gondor before the defeat of Sauron.

The elves however were however not weakned, not in the sense that the race faltered like the dúnedain had in the south. Those elves that were "strong enough to kill Balrogs" were those of the kind that sailed with Fëanor and marched with Fingolfin, the exiled Noldor.

Those who however were lingering in Middle Earth, the Sindar/wood elves of Lothlórien and their wood elf brethren in Mirkwood were however not as advanced as their Noldor cousins, nor did they possess the same prowess in arms, nor wisdom as the exiled Noldor.

So lore wise, no, the elves did not decline in the prowess of arms or strength of spirit. The only thing they DID decline in was numbers, as the elven population has slowly but steadily declined over the ages since the fall of Gil-Galad at the end of the Second Age.

Also, elves killing Balrogs. Let's just say that was NOT a common ocurrance, only a few were strong enough to withstand a Balrog and they normally lost their lives in the process if they attempted to slay one.

Ah well, I love lore

Surely the Elves did decline. Their greatest heroes lived in the First Age. And how many of those are still alive. A handful maybe. Those who have seen the Light of Aman are even fewer in number.
It's even mentioned in some book (I think in the Silmarillion) that the Elves were never as strong and as skilled as the ones in the First Age. Only their beauty increased.

[Vhaelor]

Surely the Elves did decline. Their greatest heroes lived in the First Age. And how many of those are still alive. A handful maybe. Those who have seen the Light of Aman are even fewer in number.
It's even mentioned in some book (I think in the Silmarillion) that the Elves were never as strong and as skilled as the ones in the First Age. Only their beauty increased.

Why of course they died, Morgoth annihilated them and drove the Noldor nearly to extinction by wiping out every single state they had left until only a remnant remained with Eärendil and Gil-Galad, being mixed up with the survivors of Doriath and Falas. That's what I was trying to touch upon, the elves that DID remain in middle earth (of fëanor's and fingolfin's followers) were wise and as strong as before, but they were extremely few. Many of them were killed at the sacking of Eregion and the war of the Last Alliance. The other elves themselves never really reached the level of...lets call it for ease's sake...strength simply because they had never witnessed the light of the trees, nor lived in the splendor of Valinor.

As nations, the elves declined, their realms diminished, their population removed itself further and further westward or sailed over the sea. But the elves themselves didn't lose their strength. If the elves of i.e Mirkwood had weakened over the ages like the people of Gondor had, Sauron would have conquered northern Middle Earth long ago, since the elves held the shadow of Dol Gûldur long at bay. They were few, but as strong as ever.

Note here that by elves I mean all the peoples of the elves, Sindar and Noldor alike, they kept their strength, unlike the Dúnedain whose blood was mingled with lesser men and whose people had lost the wisdom of Númenórë

No Balrog ever served Sauron, they were near equals in Angbands service.

I would not say equals. If we twist it about a bit and equalize Morgoth as God in christianity, Sauron would be Gabriel, whereas a Balrog would be one of many angels that God had, but not near in the strength of Sauron. Depends also on the Balrog in question, some were stronger, some were weaker - just like the Maiar.

[Seleukos_I.]

Why of course they died, Morgoth annihilated them and drove the Noldor nearly to extinction by wiping out every single state they had left until only a remnant remained with Eärendil and Gil-Galad, being mixed up with the survivors of Doriath and Falas. That's what I was trying to touch upon, the elves that DID remain in middle earth (of fëanor's and fingolfin's followers) were wise and as strong as before, but they were extremely few. Many of them were killed at the sacking of Eregion and the war of the Last Alliance. The other elves themselves never really reached the level of...lets call it for ease's sake...strength simply because they had never witnessed the light of the trees, nor lived in the splendor of Valinor.

As nations, the elves declined, their realms diminished, their population removed itself further and further westward or sailed over the sea. But the elves themselves didn't lose their strength. If the elves of i.e Mirkwood had weakened over the ages like the people of Gondor had, Sauron would have conquered northern Middle Earth long ago, since the elves held the shadow of Dol Gûldur long at bay. They were few, but as strong as ever.

Note here that by elves I mean all the peoples of the elves, Sindar and Noldor alike, they kept their strength, unlike the Dúnedain whose blood was mingled with lesser men and whose people had lost the wisdom of Númenórë

What you say may be true regarding the Elves living in Mirkwood. I'd even say they got stronger - not as individuals but as a kingdom under the rule of the Elves who went there after the destruction of Doriath.
But the Noldor were never as great as they've once been. They were never able to reproduce the things they've done in the First and the Second Age.

I would not say equals. If we twist it about a bit and equalize Morgoth as God in christianity, Sauron would be Gabriel, whereas a Balrog would be one of many angels that God had, but not near in the strength of Sauron. Depends also on the Balrog in question, some were stronger, some were weaker - just like the Maiar.

I'd consider Gothmog equal to Sauron.
The other Balrogs are debatable. If you follow later sources of Tolkien, then there were only seven Balrogs which would increase the importance of everyone.
But regarding the Silmarillion you come to the conclusion that there were hundreds of Balrogs which would not speak for their strength.
In the end it comes down to presonal preference I'd say.

[Point Blank]

Actually they are most vulnerable to missile attack due to low armor.

[muller227]

I downgraded Elven Infantry, attack slightly it makes a rather surprising difference. Uruk Raiders I powered up quite a bit though I cut back their numbers per unit. In general it is very lore correct. The best way to make it difficult for yourself is up the cost and upkeep by 50% for the Elven units it really gets messy then.

[Arágion]

Elves are strong as they should be.
but... losing 1/2 from one unit squaron is like personal defeat for me....
try to recruit them back, it's from hell (as it should be )

[Point Blank]

If you were immortal, how keen, really, would you be to get into combat? I'd say about zero in reality. You might consider arguing with your mother-in-law, but that's probably about it. Still seems Elves are meant to reincarnate after some time in the afterlife, and obviously their motives are not those of selfish mortal men such as myself.

[carth]

If you were immortal, how keen, really, would you be to get into combat? I'd say about zero in reality. You might consider arguing with your mother-in-law, but that's probably about it. Still seems Elves are meant to reincarnate after some time in the afterlife, and obviously their motives are not those of selfish mortal men such as myself.

actually i think this is one of the reasons why they are such good fighters. if you have lived for say 500 years.. training the way of the sword and bow. you will be a lot more skilled but also:

if you have seen it all and lived that long (Elrond is more then 3000 years old right? dont even talk about Círdan). why would you be afraid of death? and since they are not afraid of death, they fight with so much moral that it get's scary.

orc and even some men are just to afraid of death. this aflect there moral. and if you are afraid. you're fighting skills get weaker.

[Humakty]

Or the reverse : if you had all of thousands of years at your disposal, why would you risk it in a battle ? That maybe explain the attitude of the elves in the books : fleeing from most certain death, going back to the land were they can live forever. Who wouldn't do the same ?

Even in the first ages, elves seldom fight, most often going to battle a bit too late. Their main strategy along the ages seems to be to just react to Morgoth attacks.

The history of the elves is made of dwindling power and Pyrrhic victories.

[philipjd]

Isn;t that just what makes the elves non-human - they do not 'fear' death in the same way, going to the halls of Mandos is not seen as necessarily 'an end'. As for long life giving extra skills - yes indeed, but the 'Elder' are not given to a warlike existance, they are much more resilient to all things than humanity etc as well as being actually physically much more adapable and capable.

While they were fresh from Aman they also contained the 'light of the west' in their 'spirit' which gave them 'extra' capability too, this light has faded with time which is why so many have returned into the west as well as those that remain becoming 'world weary'. Which is also why the great deeds and material creations are less in the 3rd age than during their early years - this is for the Noldor and not the elves that never went over the seas in the first place. The Silmarilien gives a great background into why the 'Elders' are so 'tough'.
As for makign them extremely expensive - make them too expensive and an elder campaign just becomes boring - too many defensive sieges and too little strategic mobility as the cities that create troops are too far away from the 'action' and you can't afford the costs of the long journey between the two. And the latter is the main reason why, although I enjoy the thought, the practicalities of the faction takes away the enjoyment as youractual 'elder' units take too long to replace for gameplay - not saying that that is wrong, just that for me it reduces the enjoyment.

[Michael X]

Raiders and Snagas don't make up a good army. In fact, the army you faced was useless! Raiders are basically for dealing with rebel settlements in the first turns (as are snaga skrimishers) and then may serve only as auxilliary units to a good Isengard army. If you really want a challenge, let Isengard alone a few turns to produce its real army

[Lordinquisitor]

Well, Snagas are useful the whole game. They are so bloody cheap that you can afford to produce whole snaga stacks which you can use to severly weaken enemy armies before your good troops attack them.

[Russian Gondor]

Why not you play longer and face balrogs and mumakils. Do not forget the almighty olog-hai. No really, calm down, and wait. Elves are OP in beginning.

[Mikail Mengsk]

I don't find Elves unbreakable: i've beaten them down in custom battles with Rhun, and my infantry held the ground pretty well against their high-tier infantry. As other people said, Snagas and Raiders aren't meant to hold a prolonged melee with elven infantry. Try against heavy infantry and remember that generally, orcish units are bad compared to elven and dwarven units.

[Point Blank]

Elves are highly-beatable if played by the AI - its going to hurt, but it can be done.