NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

[s.rwitt]

Ow, it is CHEAP!!!! LETS kill more Afganis!!! BECAUSE, once we kill them, their relatives become the richest in Afganistan. It benefits them.

What's the alternative? Deny it happened? Leave Afghanistan and expect less civilians to die that way?

People like you love to criticize but never have any viable solution.
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The WORST thing they can do though is sit there and apologize and then hand them a bundle of cash like that. You kill my kid, give a half-hearted apology and write $2,000 check as compensation? That is a slap in the face if you ask me

Actually that's the best thing you can do in Afghanistan. As Faran said, when tribe A has a member killed by tribe B they will go to tribe A's elders and ask for compensation. If they don't get it, they have to get revenge on tribe B by responding in kind. Money is what stops the blood cycle.

It's part of the Pashtunwali.

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He like you understand , their clan is in a part of a country that is under Taliban rule, the fact that US soldiers are running around doesn't change that, if they resisted the Taliban they would be dead, since they didn't, it's safe to presume they are under honor pledge, and therefore in a state of Jihad since their overlords are, therefore any dealing with enemy's on Islam is considered as breach of the pledge mentioned above, which means the money you gave them will be used to blow US troops first chance they get.

Talking about how it is ing okay to kill children and then give their family 2000$ is priceless from somebody who's telling me to "say something intelligent" i would recommend the same to you but i doubt you can do it, but here's a dollar for the trouble...

Have you ever spoken to an Afghan? I seriously doubt you have.

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I know you've since corrected yourself, but that pretty much sums up the whole public and media attitude on Afghanistan. Absolutely nobody outside the military knows the first ing thing about the situation, but that doesn't stop them from mounting the steps to the soap-box at the earliest opportunity. The media in particular is guilty of lapping up every sob-story and incident in the most lurid detail, all scrabbling like rats in a sack to publish the most information at the earliest opportunity before their rivals get the scoop. No bother if they over-sensationalise the story in order to grab public interest, or run with an incomplete set of facts or the dubious testimony of a paid 'eye-witness', because nobody will hold them to account later on.

No kidding. And they have no idea what they're talking about. Just the other day someone was complaining about civilians killed in an airstrike on a convoy. I asked him what steps we should take to make sure that doesn't happen. He told me we should use robots with x-ray vision to look into the back seats and see if any women and children were sitting in the back.

[Poet]

Now I have a 2000 dollars question, if civilian deaths can be easily ignored just by saying it is war and this is collateral damage, why whole western media's ass was on fire when civilians were being killed by Russians?

[s.rwitt]

They aren't ignored...that's why they are addressed in articles every time they happen. Do you know what's going on here?

[Gauvin]

At the heart of this matter is the fact that the Taliban disguises itself as civilians, now most of us know this, but we all accept it as a natural tactic. There was a time when people who used this tactic were lined up and shot (as the geneva conventions allow since militias who do not wear uniforms, or disguise themselves as civilians are not considered protected persons, the whole reason the conventions were held was to give an incentive to armies to fight fairly so civilians were less likely to be harmed, but we treat violators of the conventions the same way as people who follow it, in other words, they lose nothing by violating them, so what's the point of having rules of war?) It's no wonder this tactic which puts innocent people in danger will go on being used.

[motiv-8]

This is hilarious! People are coming out of the wood-work like lemmings to demonstrate how little they understand the situation in Afghanistan or its people. Keep it coming, folks.

[s.rwitt]

The best part is they have no idea whatsoever that is what they're doing. The military reacts to this incident in the way of the locals and gets criticized by Western teenagers who don't think it's good enough. Awesome.

[Poet]

After reading all of the "civilized" responses of "civilized" members, if I decide to not break the Tos I would just say one thing, I am with all of those who are fighting against the curse of Nato presence in Afghanistan. Yes in a war it is difficult to avoid civilian casualties but then the question is that either that war is valid or not and here I disagree.

[motiv-8]

Yea, it's delightfully funny when kids criticize using the same exact method that a member of a different clan would have used if they, say, ran over one of the kids with their car accidentally. Except instead of $2000 USD, figure like.. $5.

[s.rwitt]

The best part is they have no idea whatsoever that is what they're doing. The military reacts to this incident in the way of the locals and gets criticized by Western teenagers who don't think it's good enough. Awesome.

READ YE UNINFORMED

• Justice and forgiveness - If one intentionally wrongs another, the victim has the right, even an obligation, to avenge this injustice in equal proportion. If one has intentionally wronged you, and you did not seek justice nor did the wrongdoer ask you for his/her forgiveness, then a debt, is owed to you by him/her, which can only be fulfilled once justice (through an act of revenge or the decision of the Jirga council) has been provided to recompense the wrong done.[/QUOTE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun...ine_principles

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After reading all of the "civilized" responses of "civilized" members, if I decide to not break the Tos I would just say one thing, I am with all of those who are fighting against the curse of Nato presence in Afghanistan. Yes in a war it is difficult to avoid civilian casualties but then the question is that either that war is valid or not and here I disagree.

That's because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh, and no one cares which side you're on.

[motiv-8]

Poet, we already know that you support the Taliban and would like to see the population of Afghanistan enslaved under their barbaric practices and systems. You don't have to remind us of your utterly dishonorable allegiances every day, we get it. Maybe you should take a trip to Kabul or Kandahar (or perhaps Marja, where the Taliban graciously paved the streets with mines and IEDs?) and tell them Afghan people yourself how much better off they'd be under the Taliban. You could point to their music, their books, their clothes and say, "you don't need that stuff." Point to their daughters and say, "they don't need educations or lives." Point to their sons and say, "they can die, hang in the street, if they disagree." Go ahead and do all that, and then come back and speak to us in such a way.

[Poet]

Interesting thing is that word "Taliban" has been used in your post thrice and I didn't mention that even once.

[s.rwitt]

You didn't have to.

[Poet]

I have no doubt that close relatives of those children, if yet they are tolerating everything, would now pick weapons and start (Tos Applied) and I have no doubt that they would be called Taliban then. Another interesting thing is that we do not learn from history, and we insist to not give any attention on tendencies and customs of revenge in Pashtun culture. Fine, please do not learn from your mistakes in Iraq and Russian mistakes in Afghanistan, this would bring you fast near the same end. InshaAllah.

[s.rwitt]

You "have no doubt" because you don't have the slightest clue about the way Afghan tribal culture works. The money we paid was an apology. If they accept it, it means they forgive us. It's part of the whole "honor" thing. How do you know so little about this when you live right next door?

Another interesting thing is that we do not learn from history, and we insist to not give any attention on tendencies and customs of revenge in Pashtun culture.

WTF??? That's exactly what we're doing. Just because you don't understand the Pashtunwali doesn't mean we don't either.

Had you ever even heard of that term before today?

[motiv-8]

Interesting thing is that word "Taliban" has been used in your post thrice and I didn't mention that even once.

When you say, and I quote, "I am with all of those who are fighting against the curse of Nato presence in Afghanistan," it's not exactly a long list. Don't try to weasel your way out of your clear support for such barbaric and abominable people.

Fine, please do not learn from your mistakes in Iraq

Interesting thing is that not only did we learn from mistakes in Iraq, but we applied what we learned to help fix Iraq and now we're applying those same lessons in Afghanistan. So as much as we'd like to heed your gracious and studied advice, no thank you.

and Russian mistakes in Afghanistan

Well, we're not indiscrimately bombing the country-side and seeding it with land-mines, so I'd say we did a good job in learning what not to do from the Russians. Thanks again for your pro-tips, but we're good.

[Heinz Guderian]

I asked this before in another thread but i think people didnt see it.

In the 9 years of occupation, after the many "oops" moments such as this one, wedding bombings, hitting the wrong convoy etc. Has there been any disciplinary actions against occupation forces? For example, if someone is responsible for ordering the attack on a convoy, and you find out later that you used burnt to death about 20 women and children, does that guy get a slap on the wrist, or will be disciplined/has he been disciplined? i think it would be important for the Afghan government's legitmacy, as well as aiding hearts and minds, if the guy responsible for burning to death those kids/women, is removed from the decision making process.

I know its war, and mistakes happen, and they do say they are sorry (god bless em), but wouldnt it help McChrystal's strategy of winning hearts and minds in A-Stan, if the guy(s) who are about to order a hit understand that if they **** up, they will at least be punished for it. Besides, burning women and children is a gross waste of resources, and the guy that ordered it doesnt seem very good at his job. Maybe a mall cop would be a more fitting occupation. Unless he ends up burning women and children in a mall in downtown St.Paul's. That would truly be incompetent.

[s.rwitt]

In the 9 years of occupation, after the many "oops" moments such as this one, wedding bombings, hitting the wrong convoy etc. Has there been any disciplinary actions against occupation forces? For example, if someone is responsible for ordering the attack on a convoy, and you find out later that you used burnt to death about 20 women and children, does that guy get a slap on the wrist, or will be disciplined/has he been disciplined? i think it would be important for the Afghan government's legitmacy, as well as aiding hearts and minds, if the guy responsible for burning to death those kids/women, is removed from the decision making process.

It depends on the situation. If you're asking if heads should roll every time a civilian is killed, no that's unreasonable. But when people are removed from command after making mistakes you're not always going to hear about it.

Now I'm sure if you had a guy that made it a habit to call in airstrikes on kindergardens, he'd be punished. But what you've got to understand is that the entire reason the Taliban surround themselves with women and children is so that when they do get hit with an airstrike the next day's headlines are going to look like "_____ women and children killed, along with some Taliban" instead of "Airstrike kills ____ Taliban".

They know exactly what they're doing.

[Heinz Guderian]

It depends on the situation. If you're asking if heads should roll every time a civilian is killed, no that's unreasonable. But when people are removed from command after making mistakes you're not always going to hear about it.

but hearing about it would be an excellent exercise in winning hearts and minds. I havent heard anything in the last 9 years.

Now I'm sure if you had a guy that made it a habit to call in airstrikes on kindergardens, he'd be punished. But what you've got to understand is that the entire reason the Taliban surround themselves with women and children is so that when they do get hit with an airstrike the next day's headlines are going to look like "_____ women and children killed, along with some Taliban" instead of "Airstrike kills ____ Taliban".

They know exactly what they're doing.

I dont think this stands up to scrutiny in this incident with the kids (were they at school or asleep when they were executed?), as well as the latest convoy bombings which involved a procession of three vehicles miles away operation in Marjah packed with civillians. I dont think any Talibs were taken down. It indicates some commanders are not very good at their jobs. And if they are not, they should perhaps be disciplined and at least go home.

[BlackPirate]

I asked this before in another thread but i think people didnt see it.

In the 9 years of occupation, after the many "oops" moments such as this one, wedding bombings, hitting the wrong convoy etc. Has there been any disciplinary actions against occupation forces? For example, if someone is responsible for ordering the attack on a convoy, and you find out later that you used burnt to death about 20 women and children, does that guy get a slap on the wrist, or will be disciplined/has he been disciplined? i think it would be important for the Afghan government's legitmacy, as well as aiding hearts and minds, if the guy responsible for burning to death those kids/women, is removed from the decision making process.

I know its war, and mistakes happen, and they do say they are sorry (god bless em), but wouldnt it help McChrystal's strategy of winning hearts and minds in A-Stan, if the guy(s) who are about to order a hit understand that if they **** up, they will at least be punished for it. Besides, burning women and children is a gross waste of resources, and the guy that ordered it doesnt seem very good at his job. Maybe a mall cop would be a more fitting occupation. Unless he ends up burning women and children in a mall in downtown St.Paul's. That would truly be incompetent.

You cant do this because this will lead NATO soldiers to hesitate everytime they focus a target and they do not know for sure that Taliban are there.Its war and these things happen.However i 100% understand why these attacks infuriate Afghans

[s.rwitt]

but hearing about it would be an excellent exercise in winning hearts and minds. I havent heard anything in the last 9 years.

Maybe. Or it would make other soldiers overcautious next time they want to call in air and get people killed. If they are within the ROE and Law Of Land Warfare they shouldn't be punished.

Plus, Afghans have a totally different view of justice than we do. In the Pashtunwali, atonement and compensation is more important than punishment.

I dont think this stands up to scrutiny in this incident with the kids (were they at school or asleep when they were executed?), as well as the latest convoy bombings which involved a procession of three vehicles miles away operation in Marjah packed with civillians. I dont think any Talibs were taken down. It indicates some commanders are not very good at their jobs. And if they are not, they should perhaps be disciplined and at least go home.

I was addressing the war as a whole, not just these two incidents. Though I thought I saw that the soldiers were taking fire from the compound.

And there are so many other variables that to say "Civilians died, some commander isn't good at his job" is gross oversimplification. I thought I'd taught you better than that Heinz...I've failed you...