Page 1 of 10 12345678910 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 184

Thread: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

  1. #1

    Default NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    A night-time raid in eastern Afghanistan in which eight schoolboys from one family were killed was carried out on the basis of faulty intelligence and should never have been authorised, a Times investigation has found.

    Ten children and teenagers died when troops stormed a remote mountain compound near the border with Pakistan in December.

    At the time, Nato claimed that the assault force was targeting a “known insurgent group responsible for a series of violent attacks”. Officials said that the victims were involved in making and smuggling improvised explosive devices. But Western sources close to the case now agree that the victims were all aged 12 to 18 and were not involved in insurgent activity.

    Nato sources say that the raid should never have been authorised. “Knowing what we know now, it would probably not have been a justifiable attack,” an official in Kabul told The Times. “We don’t now believe that we busted a major ring.”
    When reports of the raid first surfaced eight weeks ago, The Times contacted the police chief in Kunar province and then the boys’ head-master and uncle, Rahman Jan Ehsas.

    Two men whose children and other relatives were killed agreed to come to Kabul to describe the incident. They provided pictures of their dead sons, a sketched map of the compound and copies of the compensation claim forms signed by local officials detailing their sons’ names, relatives and positions at school. Their story was supported by Western military sources.

    Farooq Abdul Ajan, who lost two sons, two brothers, three nephews and a cousin in the raid, said that the soldiers had had no idea whom they were killing. Afghan investigators, local officials and MPs from the province all maintain that the boys were innocent.

    Nato’s statement, issued four days after the event, said that troops were attacked “from several buildings” as they entered the village. Yesterday it said that “ultimately, we did determine this to be a civilian casualty incident”.

    Anger is growing over civilian casualties. General Stanley McChrystal, the US commander, has warned that Nato risks “strategic defeat” by causing civilian deaths. The Independent Human Rights Commission said that more than 63 civilians had died in the past two weeks, including 27 killed when US special forces ordered an airstrike on a convoy of minibuses in the central Daikundi province. Nato recently introduced a new tactical directive to limit the use of night raids, the coalition’s chief legal adviser, Colonel Richard Gross, said. “General McChrystal realised that this was one of the areas where we had to change the way we do business, or else we would not win this war,” he said.

    Exactly who carried out the Narang raid is unclear. Colonel Gross said that US forces were present but did not lead the operation. Nato insists that the troops were not part of the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf). US forces based in Kunar denied any knowledge of the raid.

    Senior Western officers have hinted that the “trigger pullers” were Afghan; the Afghan Defence Ministry said its troops were not involved. Mohammed Afzal, Narang’s district police chief, insisted that US special forces were involved.Assadullah Wafa, who led an Afghan investigation into the incident, said that relatives would get $2,000 compensation for each person killed.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7040166.ece
    This is not the first time when innocent civilians suffer from NATO operations in Afghanistan. Its also kinda weird that different parts of Coalition have different claims on who committed the raid.

  2. #2

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    This is not the first time when innocent civilians suffer from NATO operations in Afghanistan.
    Are you sure? I swear I've been looking and looking but I can find no mention of civilians ever dying during combat operations before. You better back that statement up pronto Mister!

  3. #3

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Bravo NATO (read US of A), sure, you know how to win hearts and minds?

    Assadullah Wafa, who led an Afghan investigation into the incident, said that relatives would get $2,000 compensation for each person killed.
    that now we know the worth of an Afgan live. Less than monthly pay of American grunt (correct me if I am wrong). Seems that every US of A, -pardon me- NATO soldier can kill 12 Afgan civilians yearly.
    In tribute to concerned friends:
    - You know nothing Jon Snow.





    Samples from the Turkish Cuisine by white-wolf

  4. #4

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    This is not the first time when innocent civilians suffer from NATO operations in Afghanistan.
    No . It's called collatoral damage. The same thing happened in Georgia and Chechenya when the Russians had their little wars there, often on a far grander scale. Mistakes will always happen, no matter how well-planned or organised a military force is.

    Bravo NATO (read US of A), sure, you know how to win hearts and minds?
    Yes, damn us for only killing a handful of civilians in a few cases and immediately apologising for it and giving compensation.

    For 's sake.

    We should adopt the good ol' Soviet doctrine: Kill everything, burn everything, loot everything. Carpet bomb Afghan villages, gas civilians and poison the wells. Perhaps then the people who whine about the current NATO doctrine will realize the relative benevolence of NATO.
    Last edited by Dr. Croccer; February 26, 2010 at 08:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  5. #5

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    No . It's called collatoral damage. The same thing happened in Georgia and Chechenya when the Russians had their little wars there, often on a far grander scale. Mistakes will always happen, no matter how well-planned or organised a military force is.
    Oh don't say that Doc, Vohl will go on and on about the bravery and utmost competency of Russian forces in such instances and that those civilians likely were killed because they purposely cast themselves in front of Russian barrels.


    As for the raid, lamentable news indeed. My money is on an Afghan unit doing the trigger pulling, though. Doesn't sound like an accidental screw up, sounds more like a complete up beyond all sorts. They want to say SF, but really? Any Western SF unit would be hard pressed to just open up on eight civilians without provocation, that's hard to believe. Had to be some amateurish unit-- possibly Western but again, my money is on Afghans.
    Last edited by Visna; February 26, 2010 at 09:39 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Volh are you just upset we haven't reached the levels of incompetence and cruelty that the Soviet forces had in Afghanistan?
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  7. #7
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    16,504

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Well, they said "sorry for killing your kids here's $2000".

    Edit: i like the way everyone is piling on Volh cos he's Russian.




  8. #8

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Reminder : A bad example is not an example.
    In tribute to concerned friends:
    - You know nothing Jon Snow.





    Samples from the Turkish Cuisine by white-wolf

  9. #9
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Right behind you starring over your shoulder.
    Posts
    31,638

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Just so people know, $2,000 is almost 5 times the per capita income of Afghanistan. It would be the equivalent of about $200,000 in the US, so its not a tiny sum. And the paying of "blood money" is an important aspect in Afghan Culture, it is how you avoid the constant cycle of revenge killings.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  10. #10

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    Well, they said "sorry for killing your kids here's $2000".
    Lol, yeah.

    That having been said, $2000 is probably, like, 999 zilion afghanis, so they're instantly the richest people in Afghanistan.



    Edit: i like the way everyone is piling on Volh cos he's Russian.
    It's because he always defends Russia's killing of civilians in pretty much every war since 1900, but apparantly refuses to regard the far rarer collatoral damage done by NATO in a similair light.

    Volh are you just upset we haven't reached the levels of incompetence and cruelty that the Soviet forces had in Afghanistan?
    Well, to be honest the Soviets weren't incompetent. They clearly adapted and their doctrine allowed them to kill a large amount of mujihadeen. The reason they lost was precisely because of that doctrine, because it was so ing indiscriminate and brutal it led to the complete destruction of public support for the commies and fueled the Mujihadeen.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  11. #11
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    16,504

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Redleg Officer View Post
    Just so people know, $2,000 is almost 5 times the per capita income of Afghanistan. It would be the equivalent of about $200,000 in the US, so its not a tiny sum. And the paying of "blood money" is an important aspect in Afghan Culture, it is how you avoid the constant cycle of revenge killings.
    If only Al-Qaeda paid $6,000,000 to the American families in 2001, we could have avoided this war




  12. #12
    CarbEast's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The best place on planet Earth - Russia obviously.
    Posts
    1,053

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    We should adopt the good ol' Soviet doctrine: Kill everything, burn everything, loot everything. Carpet bomb Afghan villages, gas civilians and poison the wells.
    You forgot the nuking, and eating all the babies part...

    It's all in a day's work for bicycle repairman.

  13. #13
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Right behind you starring over your shoulder.
    Posts
    31,638

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    If only Al-Qaeda paid $6,000,000 to the American families in 2001, we could have avoided this war
    There is a difference between intentional and unintentional killing...
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  14. #14
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    18,054

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    Edit: i like the way everyone is piling on Volh cos he's Russian.
    no, not because he's russian, its because he is so transparent in his motives for putting up such threads.

  15. #15
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    16,504

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Redleg Officer View Post
    There is a difference between intentional and unintentional killing...
    These kids were supposed to be arrested and not killed?

    no, not because he's russian, its because he is so transparent in his motives for putting up such threads.
    like Americans put up threads to show how great they are? How republicans put up threads to show crap Obama is? Each one of us have inescapable bias.

    I expect level headed people on these forums to come in and say how disgraceful it is and the perpetrators should be hunted down and punished. Not "but hey Heinz, they did get $2000, which is a lot of money man, just so you know". Cos <this kind of thing is muchos hilarious.

    Sometimes i forget this is a political forum of a war gaming site. But i hold out hope. Sometimes i am pleasantry suprised by people's posts, other times, its business as usual.
    Last edited by Heinz Guderian; February 26, 2010 at 08:41 AM.




  16. #16
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Right behind you starring over your shoulder.
    Posts
    31,638

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    These kids were supposed to be arrested and not killed?
    Don't know the whole case. The soldiers should be disciplined of course. But the fact is there mission was not to kill school children, they they were not intentional targets of fire (like the people on 9-11, the embassy bombings, the London Subway bombings or the like)
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  17. #17
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    18,054

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    These kids were supposed to be arrested and not killed?



    like Americans put up threads to show how great they are? How republicans put up threads to show crap Obama is? Each one of us have inescapable bias.

    I expect level headed people on these forums to come in and say how disgraceful it is and the perpetrators should be hunted down and punished. Not "but hey Heinz, they did get $2000, which is a lot of money man, just so you know". Cos <this kind of thing is muchos hilarious.

    Sometimes i forget this is a political forum of a war gaming site. But i hold out hope. Sometimes i am pleasantry suprised by people's posts, other times, its business as usual.
    perhaps u havent heard of the increasing use of human shields as a tactic employed by the taliban?

    the article clearly shows that the soldiers did not set out to go on a massacre of random afghans....

  18. #18

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    This is not the first time when innocent civilians suffer from NATO operations in Afghanistan.
    Sorry but this claim is just outrageous. Source please.
    "People don't think the universe be like it is, but it do." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson


    In Soviet Russia you want Uncle Sam.

  19. #19

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    It's because he always defends Russia's killing of civilians in pretty much every war since 1900, but apparantly refuses to regard the far rarer collatoral damage done by NATO in a similair light.
    So? How is that related to this particular event? Why is his race important here?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  20. #20
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    Posts
    16,469

    Default Re: NATO soldiers kill 8 schoolchildren in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian
    Edit: i like the way everyone is piling on Volh cos he's Russian.
    We wouldn't have a problem if Volh had slammed Russian troops in Chechnya as hard as he does ISAF in A-Stan. Unfortunately, as one can tell from his history, he doesn't.
    Last edited by Visna; February 26, 2010 at 09:40 AM.

Page 1 of 10 12345678910 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •