Scenario: The Red Dragon vs The Bear

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

I was pondering the other day whilst playing Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising (Sweet game btw), if China had an aggressive boarder dispute with Russia and things began to escalate into a full scale war. What do you think would happen? What do you all think the reaction of the world would be? Would Mongolia collectively poop itself?


I personally could see it happening over certain historical disputes they've had brought up again along with a need for gas and oil in a super-developing China that would eventually lead to sanctions/poop talk between the two nations until someone on the boarder fired a shot or something. lol.

[Haakon]

I see the dragon coming out on top and that Russia gets 'humanwaved' in the same way they human waved the Germans on the eastern front. Theres only so much you could do when you got an angry ant hill coming your way.

This is of course a scenario without nuclear detonations.

[hellheaven1987]

1. Sino-Soviet did nearly open a full scale war due to border dispute in 70s. It did not happen, because both sides did not want it.

2. If it really happens, we probably would see both sides human wave eachothers.

[pannonian]

Wales would whup the Russians at rugby.

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

I agree with the above statement.

[SorelusImperion]

China is already largely dependent on imports to sustain it's economy. An actuall full scale war might bring a few early victorys but it is very likely that China would face a blockade rather sooner than later and unless China has stockpiled huge quantities of oil and other strategic materials it's warmachine would soon grind to a halt or work only at minimum efficiency.

[Oklop]

China is already largely dependent on imports to sustain it's economy. An actuall full scale war might bring a few early victorys but it is very likely that China would face a blockade rather sooner than later and unless China has stockpiled huge quantities of oil and other strategic materials it's warmachine would soon grind to a halt or work only at minimum efficiency.

I agree.

Also the only feasible scenario where a battle may occur is if Chinese army invades Russia. Russia can retreat a bit, let them in, and nuke them.

Yes nuke them with tactical nuke and one invading army is gone. It is on its own (largely uninhabited) territory so the bad press will be much less that if they nuked another country.

Also is not Russia's submarine fleet much stronger than China's navy? Old but strong. Wolf packs again? I beleive China relies mostly on sea routes for trade.

China can win simply by sending 10 - 20 million men in uniform (untrained and unarmed as it costs too much for this plan) which will simply surrender and therefore burden Russia with that many mouths to feed as POW. The drawback is that this is Russia we are talking about so they may not actually feed them. And Siberia is close

But they are too dependent on each other, so it will not happen for a loooooong time.

[Irish King]

I think it would turn into a very long, drawn out wa with many casualties and horrible conditions because they'll probably be fighting in Siberia, which is cold and it would spread out the fighting. And Mongolia would as you put it. "collectively poop itself"(lol). Also the world would probably try to end the war, but they wouldn't be succesful.

[Aru]

China can't move too far too fast due to huge area and distances that limit supply. Clearly the main target would be taking over transsiberian rail, and in the same time moving against Russian Pacific coast, which is heavily guarded. That way they would find themselves surrounded on both east and west, unless they can take Pacific coast quickly. It would be in both sides interest to leave Mongolia out of war, there's simply too huge a border to watch, and not worth it. It would be a long war in East Siberia, but I think that Russians would prevail because it is after all Russian country, they would have all the available infrastructure there, know the terrain and it's not as if they don't already have plans and bases for defense. But I don't see Russia getting deep into China on a counter attack. The battlefield would be 700 km between Mongolia and North Korea, on Chinese terms now, with tens of millions of dug in Chinese. Unless Russia would try to hit through Kazakhstan, the war would reach a stalemate there, and depend wholly on which side can sustained the prolonged conflict economically. While China is huge and has huge workforce to maintain the industry, it lacks in resources and materials and needs to feed all that crowd, and it is politically more suspectible to civilian unrest, while Russia can make use of their oil and gas capabilities. In the end it would fall to status quo and cease fire, I think.

This is, of course, just my personal short "what if" scenario which doesn't include anyone else interfering in the war and the use of nuclear weapons on grand scale, in which case Russia has huge advantage.

[Nikitn]

I was pondering the other day whilst playing Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising (Sweet game btw), if China had an aggressive boarder dispute with Russia and things began to escalate into a full scale war. What do you think would happen? What do you all think the reaction of the world would be? Would Mongolia collectively poop itself?


I personally could see it happening over certain historical disputes they've had brought up again along with a need for gas and oil in a super-developing China that would eventually lead to sanctions/poop talk between the two nations until someone on the boarder fired a shot or something. lol.

games like operation flashpoint should burn in hell. Stop playing them and thus supporting the idiot developers.

I see the dragon coming out on top and that Russia gets 'humanwaved' in the same way they human waved the Germans on the eastern front. Theres only so much you could do when you got an angry ant hill coming your way.

This is of course a scenario without nuclear detonations.

1. You have no idea what you are talking about.
2. Russia did not "human waved" Germany during WW2. If anything, all the axis forces fighting in the east were for the most part only half the size of the Soviet. Soviets won due to the quality of their war machine and due to the manpower reserves (early in the war they needed lots of new manpower to replace entire armies who were surrounded and surrendered).

[Haakon]

1. You have no idea what you are talking about.

1. Enlighten me instead of coming off as a jerk

2. Russia did not "human waved" Germany during WW2. If anything, all the axis forces fighting in the east were for the most part only half the size of the Soviet. Soviets won due to the quality of their war machine and due to the manpower reserves (early in the war they needed lots of new manpower to replace entire armies who were surrounded and surrendered).

Oh yes they did. The NKVD made sure millions of Russians were pushed to the front, often without weapons. The tactic was that the unarmed men, picked up the weapons of the dead. That was, as a matter of fact, human waves being thrown at the Germans.

[Oklop]

Oh yes they did. The NKVD made sure millions of Russians were pushed to the front, often without weapons. The tactic was that the unarmed men, picked up the weapons of the dead. That was, as a matter of fact, human waves being thrown at the Germans.

Please do not start USSR vs Germany guys.

And everybody on the eastern front had a weapon. Everybody. Perhaps they were not led or commanded very good for the first year or so but to think that unarmed and untrained mass of people defeated the Wehrmacht is silly at best.

And Flashpoint is very good game. At least the first part and the Red Army expansion.

[Haakon]

Please do not start USSR vs Germany guys.

Its not about that mate

And everybody on the eastern front had a weapon.

They did eventually.

But lets get back to human waves. Take the battle of Stalingrad as an example, the Soviet needed to cross the Volga and they did that despite being under massive fire, resulting in heavy casualties. The life expectancy of a Soviet soldier in Stalingrad was 24 hours. There were whole army units that suffered up to 97% casualty rate, and the poor bastards had the option of being either killed by political commisars or the Germans.

The Soviet sent their men into a meat grinder, in the tens of thousands.

[Oklop]

Its not about that mate

They did eventually.

But lets get back to human waves. Take the battle of Stalingrad as an example, the Soviet needed to cross the Volga and they did that despite being under massive fire, resulting in heavy casualties. The life expectancy of a Soviet soldier in Stalingrad was 24 hours. There were whole army units that suffered up to 97% casualty rate, and the poor bastards had the option of being either killed by political commisars or the Germans.

The Soviet sent their men into a meat grinder, in the tens of thousands.

So did the Germans. It was a horrible fight for both sides and the casualties were about the same. Let us not forget 2 Romanian, 1 Italian and 1 Hungarian armies that were mauled horribly by the encircling Red army. Hundreds of thousands of casualties right there. None of them German but all Axis.

And by the beginning of Stalingrad commissars were reduced to "advisory" role, and Germans too could not retreat.

But let us get back to Dragon vs Bear.

I simply beleive that China has no chance of taking a part of Russia. And Russia of course has no chance of taking part of China. So it will never happen.

And it is wrong assume that everybody's tactical thinking has not progressed beyond the "send more man than they have bullets" as it rarely worked. And since the invention of the Maxim machine gun has not.

IF the fight cames to be it would be massive battle with thousands of fighting vehicles and hundreds of planes from both sides.

[hellheaven1987]

And everybody on the eastern front had a weapon. Everybody. Perhaps they were not led or commanded very good for the first year or so but to think that unarmed and untrained mass of people defeated the Wehrmacht is silly at best.

Depends what year. In 1942 some penal units in defence of Stalingrad had equipments been stripped and fought in empty hand, so those equipments could transfer to units that were preparing for the offensive operation against 6th Army. Not what Red Army wanted, but simply there were not enough equipments.

[Nikitn]

Depends what year. In 1942 some penal units in defence of Stalingrad had equipments been stripped and fought in empty hand, so those equipments could transfer to units that were preparing for the offensive operation against 6th Army. Not what Red Army wanted, but simply there were not enough equipments.

Uhmm, source? I know penal units weren't exactly of high priority, but everyone had sub machine guns and ammunition at the very least (contrary to popular belief a PPSH is much easier and faster 2 produce than a Mosin Nagant which requires high quality components and high quality work so it could be accurrate).

[Nikitn]

1. Enlighten me instead of coming off as a jerk

You base your claims on absolutely nothing.

Oh yes they did. The NKVD made sure millions of Russians were pushed to the front, often without weapons. The tactic was that the unarmed men, picked up the weapons of the dead. That was, as a matter of fact, human waves being thrown at the Germans.

Wrong. Such tactics never happened except in stupid hollywood films. Also, vast majority of people voulenteered to fight off the Germans.

Hell, if your claim has any basis in reality what-so-ever, how can you explain that Axis took 5,2 million KIA while Soviets took 7 million KIA in eastern front?

They did eventually.

But lets get back to human waves. Take the battle of Stalingrad as an example, the Soviet needed to cross the Volga and they did that despite being under massive fire, resulting in heavy casualties. The life expectancy of a Soviet soldier in Stalingrad was 24 hours. There were whole army units that suffered up to 97% casualty rate, and the poor bastards had the option of being either killed by commisars or the Germans.

The Soviet sent their men into a meat grinder, in the tens of thousands.

Haha, source? And you do reailize that Stalingrad was a meat-grinder for BOTH sides? Axis and Soviets took about equal losses in that battle.

PS. Soviets crossed the volga usually without resistance (hollywood fantasy which you use as a source apparantly) or any attacks. It was after the landing that the hardest fighting took place.

[Haakon]

Wrong. Such tactics never happened except in stupid hollywood films. Also, vast majority of people voulenteered to fight off the Germans.

Many did, many did not.

Hell, if your claim has any basis in reality what-so-ever, how can you explain that Axis took 5,2 million KIA while Soviets took 7 million KIA in eastern front?

Its well known and documented that the NKVD captured "enemies of the people" and sent them unarmed to the front. Even Soviet soldiers who had surrendered and were later captured by the NKVD were either sent to consetration camps or sent back (unarmed) to the front.

[Nikitn]

Many did, many did not.

Wait, wait, then why was morale so high? Not just in Soviet army but in the entire nation?

Its well known and documented that the NKVD captured "enemies of the people" and sent them unarmed to the front. Even Soviet soldiers who had surrendered and were later captured by the NKVD were either sent to consetration camps or sent back (unarmed) to the front.

No it is not. It's actually BS. Back it up.

[HansDuet]

games like operation flashpoint should burn in hell. Stop playing them and thus supporting the idiot developers.

Shut up.

Best game ever. Sequel was a huge disappointment though.


As for topic, dunno. Chinese have manpower and economy, but we all know what has happened to those who have invaded Russian soil before.