Assimilating in America

[Jabberwock]

What is assimilation and integration in America? At what point do we say someone is assimilated and is American?

I keep coming back to the conclusion there is no point of assimilation. What are immigrants actually assimilating into? There is no requirement to speak a specified language and American culture is a melting pot of dozens of cultures. To call yourself an American only takes two things: Citizenship and obeying law. Perhaps this is why America does so well with immigrants. Is this one of the core differences between Europe and America?

[Gelgoog]

No one is forcing immigrants to assimilate. The fact is actually that those who do come to the states are very eager to become citizens and are often the more patriotic then americans themselves. For someone coming from a poverty stricken class based society and to come to America which gives you every opportunity to succeed if your hard working and innovative....well that means a hell of alot to these people.

Typically the angry "immigrant" image comes from the off spring of said immigrants who were born in America. They prop their cultural heritage to a mythical status not realizing why their parents left in the first place. An extreme example of this are blacks who talk about how great Africa is, and when they go back to visit their roots they realize what a hole that place and see how good they really have it in america.
I have never once met an immigrant who legally came to this country who thought they were better off where they came from (with the exception of europeans). However I have met plenty of 2nd generation immigrants who idealized their parents country and were anti-american.

[vopohame]

I dont know of too many illegal ones either who hate america either. Scheuch is generally right it usually is the 2nd or later generations who idealize a home country. Much like Irish or italian americans often do. The vast majority of americans really dont care one bit how much you assimilate so as long as they can understand you. They(americans in general) are perfectly fine with whatever you decide to do on your own and how much of your culture you keep so as long as they dont have to learn your language to get along with you.

Americans are generally very easy going especially if you bring a dish of your ethnic food to a gathering.
Then it gets copied among the women who want to show off something new and viola part of the american culture.

[Gelgoog]

I dont know of too many illegal ones either who hate america either.

generally we only get pissy when you disrespect our culture/laws. Such as getting huffy because you don't speak english and no one around you speaks spanish. I can't tell you how many mexicans have come into my place of work and got pissy because I could not speak spanish as if it was some sort of pre-requisite. Or flying a foreign flag above the Stars and bars....

All we ask is a little respect of the country that adopted you. As you said, Americans are much more eager to assimilate your culture into our own, then demanding you to assimilate to ours. America culture was formed from dozens of cultures, we are not a homogeneous group.

[jankren]

No one is forcing immigrants to assimilate. The fact is actually that those who do come to the states are very eager to become citizens and are often the more patriotic then americans themselves. For someone coming from a poverty stricken class based society and to come to America which gives you every opportunity to succeed if your hard working and innovative....well that means a hell of alot to these people.

Typically the angry "immigrant" image comes from the off spring of said immigrants who were born in America. They prop their cultural heritage to a mythical status not realizing why their parents left in the first place. An extreme example of this are blacks who talk about how great Africa is, and when they go back to visit their roots they realize what a hole that place and see how good they really have it in america.
I have never once met an immigrant who legally came to this country who thought they were better off where they came from (with the exception of europeans). However I have met plenty of 2nd generation immigrants who idealized their parents country and were anti-american.

2nd generation immigrants experience the greatest identity crisis.

I think everywhere in the world its the same and honestly its understandable.

[knight of virtue and valor]

No one is forcing immigrants to assimilate. The fact is actually that those who do come to the states are very eager to become citizens and are often the more patriotic then americans themselves. For someone coming from a poverty stricken class based society and to come to America which gives you every opportunity to succeed if your hard working and innovative....well that means a hell of alot to these people.

Typically the angry "immigrant" image comes from the off spring of said immigrants who were born in America. They prop their cultural heritage to a mythical status not realizing why their parents left in the first place. An extreme example of this are blacks who talk about how great Africa is, and when they go back to visit their roots they realize what a hole that place and see how good they really have it in america.
I have never once met an immigrant who legally came to this country who thought they were better off where they came from (with the exception of europeans). However I have met plenty of 2nd generation immigrants who idealized their parents country and were anti-american.

I agree. my great grandfather knew a guy from japan that was freaking fanatic for America in WW2

[El Brujo]

There is a broad underclass culture, based on imitation of black ghetto culture, that has developed which a lot of people of all ethnic groups are assimilating into. Likewise there is a generic middle class consumer culture that more economically successful people assimilate into. These cultures are both fairly superficial and artificially sustained by the country's vast wealth. If anything should happen to that collective wealth, resource competition would cause people to return to tribalism. Actual American culture, of the blood and soil variety, has been dying since the 1950's so I would argue that very few people are actually assimilating in the same way they did before WWII.

edit*

However I also hate it when people proclaim themselves to be 5th generation texans or something. Who cares...that doesn't make you anymore special.

Actually it does.

[Jabberwock]

There is a broad underclass culture, based on imitation of black ghetto culture, that has developed which a lot of people of all ethnic groups are assimilating into. Likewise there is a generic middle class consumer culture that more economically successful people assimilate into. These cultures are both fairly superficial and artificially sustained by the country's vast wealth. If anything should happen to that collective wealth, resource competition would cause people to return to tribalism. Actual American culture, of the blood and soil variety, has been dying since the 1950's so I would argue that very few people are actually assimilating in the same way they did before WWII.

edit*Actually it does.

Do you see all Black people as ghetto and not American? Because that seems to me what you're saying.

[Gelgoog]

There is a broad underclass culture, based on imitation of black ghetto culture, that has developed which a lot of people of all ethnic groups are assimilating into. Likewise there is a generic middle class consumer culture that more economically successful people assimilate into. These cultures are both fairly superficial and artificially sustained by the country's vast wealth. If anything should happen to that collective wealth, resource competition would cause people to return to tribalism. Actual American culture, of the blood and soil variety, has been dying since the 1950's so I would argue that very few people are actually assimilating in the same way they did before WWII.

Gee I did not see people resorting to tribalism during the great depression, and that was a period when we had huge immigration numbers and every large city had their own "little italy" type communities. I never saw the Italian and Irish neighborhoods bombing eachother ( apart from the mafia that is).

If the government collapses then yes, things are going to hit the fan just like it would in every nation. However this tribalism you speak of does not and has never existed in the US apart from native tribes. These type of ethnic divides however are very common in europe and the rest of the world.

edit*Actually it does.

Nope it doesn't. It can make you feel important, because your are living vicariously through the deeds of other people, however you are not important.

[El Brujo]

Nope it doesn't. It can make you feel important, because your are living vicariously through the deeds of other people, however you are not important.

It's a way of identifying oneself as a member of an ethnic/cultural group. If you want to understand how Texans are a distinct group then read Fehrenbach, one of America's greatest historians and the author of seminal works on both Texas and the Korean War.

Gee I did not see people resorting to tribalism during the great depression, and that was a period when we had huge immigration numbers and every large city had their own "little italy" type communities. I never saw the Italian and Irish neighborhoods bombing eachother ( apart from the mafia that is).

If the government collapses then yes, things are going to hit the fan just like it would in every nation. However this tribalism you speak of does not and has never existed in the US apart from native tribes. These type of ethnic divides however are very common in europe and the rest of the world.

Americans in the 1930's still had a healthy, confident, and fairly cohesive overarching culture. Minority groups acting up would not have been tolerated and in the case of Japanese and Germans was preempted. When immigrants have had strong enough numbers concentrated in an area to challenge the majority they have proven more then capable of breaking ranks and revolting. This can plainly be seen in the New York City draft riots and the Texas guerrilla insurgency during the Civil War. Things are different today, where the former majority is now disunified and demoralized by decades of propoganda telling them they don't exist. The glue that held the country together since its founding is rapidly dissolving, and this will become apparent in the coming decade. This process has actually been ongoing since before the War of 1812, and Confederate general Richard Taylor remarks in his memoirs how profoundly parts of the North had been altered by demographic change as early as the Civil War.

[Thorn777]

They assimilate well because after 3 months in the country you dont get gov-support and you have to stand on your own feet. Being a part of the economy and dealing with different people on a daily basis sure does the trick.

Though I wouldn't want that in Europe. nvm most our immigrants assimilating as well, whatever assimilating exactly is supposed to meen.

[Captain Jin]

Scheuch is pretty close to the mark. Most people tend to assimilate on their own, there isn't any sort of guiding force for immigrants that forces them to become Americans. Most immigrants that come here are pretty damn patriotic as is and then usually by the third or fourth generation they don't even speak their original language. That is bad and good, I suppose. Bad because they leave behind a bi-lingual ability.

Sometimes there are irritating incidents. I remember a couple years ago in Southern California a group of high school students getting angry over the whole border fence thing and they pulled down the American flag at their high school and hung up a Mexican flag. Stuff like that will get lots of people angry at you, especially when many of these kids probably had never been to Mexico (as Scheuch said they were likely second-gen kids). Personally, I think it's nice to honor your heritage and perhaps be proud of that but trying to hold it in some reverent light is just plain retarded. And that goes for everyone, black, white, whatever. I got in a big argument with some college kids visiting Prague from the states. They were all blubbering on about how proud they were about where they came from in Europe and one was saying how he'd be torn if the USA and Hungary were to play in an international sport because his grandparents came from Hungary. And I was just like are you ing serious? He had never been there, didn't speak Hungarian, didn't know anything about Hungarian culture but proclaimed himself soo Hungarian. I told him that was stupid and that he was an American and then I informed them all on the definition of a plastic paddy, at which point they got rather upset. That sort of stuff is stupid.

[Gelgoog]

lol exactly Jin. We actually have that same thing happen here in America. Anytime we would talk about Natives in one of our classes, some idiot would get on their soapbox and call us all a bunch of genocidal bastards and say that they were 1/36 Cherokee or some nonsense. I have very strong german roots, and I have traced back my family on both sides to several hundred years ago. However you are not going to see me showing up Germany looking for distant relatives to connect with. However I also hate it when people proclaim themselves to be 5th generation texans or something. Who cares...that doesn't make you anymore special.

So yes Captain jin, I can understand why you would get made. Alot of us get made at anyone who uses a hyphen in their name if their family has been in this country for more then 100 years. Italian-American, African-American......if your parents did not live in that country then you are an american sooo shutup. I think this wannabe-ism is just a symptom for being such a young country.

[manofarms89]

both sides of family (except for my dads mom) came to America during WWI for political reasons. Both my grandpas, their brothers, and my father, for a short time served in the armed forces. while my dad's dad became a bit disillusioned with America after Korea, my mom's dad is the most patriotic man i know.

my grandpa says while we should be happy and proud that we are Americans, we can't forget the occasional "hiccups" (for example during the Zoot Suit Riots, his younger brother was attacked by sailors and my dad didn't learn Spanish until his late twenties because the teachers would hit any student who spoke Spanish).

[vopohame]

Just in my street alone we have 1st generation Ukrainians, Russians, Thai, Mexicans, then Native American(me) Bosnian(my wife) as well as 2nd generation Albanians and the rest are generally of northern european descent of an undetermined immigration date probably 150-250 years ago. There arent any problems and just about everyone shares and works together on common neighborhood issues like the 4 feet of snow we had a couple weeks ago.

The Thai use my garden then share all the bounty with everyone, the americans do the yard cleanup and snow removal, the russians and ukrainians get everyone spring water from the mountains, the mexicans keep the neighborhood trouble free and take care of most of the automotive issues of the neigbhorhood and everyone shares each others food. Probably typical of most urban areas of the country.

[pchalk]

my mom is one of the european immigrants that Scheuch mentioned. really the only drawback is that she missed her family and friends and some other things. she made the best of both worlds otherwise. internet helps keep with the roots. shes a german and american citizen like me and its an accurate description of who she is.

as a man who was born and raised in the US i can say that doesnt mean u dont hold an identity from ur parent[s]' homeland. for one, in my case, the parent has heavy influence on that. Up until I was 5 or 6 years old I spoke english with a german accent. i had never lived in germany its just how i was taught to speak. the home away from home that u rarely get to see effects your personality and interests growing up. u get really curious about it as it does set u apart from others. My best friends have parents from foreign countries and theyd prolly say the same. idk about these post 2nd generation immigrants. I dont know many but the ones I do know dont seem any different than any other americans born in the states

[Sher Khan]

scheuch13 is correct.

Unfortunately, so is El Brujo in a manner of speaking.

[kesa82]

Good question. I can't answer it though.

My parents went to Canada to homestead, but it didn't work out. So we came back to the US about 3 months after I was born. Other than that, I've lived my entire life in the US.
And even when I was 4 years old, I have never thought of myself as an American.
I am a ( my family name inserted here ) which is personal.
A Catholic, which is personal.
A Monarchist, which, as I understand Monarchism, is also personal.

As for the impersonal, because I was born in Canada, every time I go to get my drivers license renewed it is a nightmare. There is some new obscure document I need which it will take me 6 weeks and about a hundred dollars to obtain, all to prove what is obvious ; that I am not a blonde haired , blue eyed, North Korean spy.
So what an American is, I have no idea.

[vopohame]

I agree with parts of El Brujo's statements of the 2 superficial main groups in the US. As for american culture of the blood and soil variety I just dont see it and dont believe it ever really existed. There has always been a vast amount of diverse ethnic groups in the US and there has always been at least 2-4 generation process where the old culture is nothing more than a memory.

Pretty much everyone who has emigrated before 1840s is completely assimilated except for pockets of pennsylvania germans. The other germans who came in the 1840s and similar decades are completely assimilated however the scandinavians who came in the last half of the 19th century are not all completely assimilated as many retain customs that have even been lost in those countries. The same with the Irish, Italians, Greeks, Jews, Poles, Serbs/Croats and many slavic groups while have assimilated for the most part still retain sizeable vestiges of their previous culture and they all came before 1950.

The latinos and asians who mostly came in the last 50 years are of course behind on the assimilation process as they are the last major groups to come here and have the least amount of time here. However there are plenty of asians and latinos especially here in the north that have not even a shred of an ability to speak their old languages or know anything about their former cultures.

[removeduser_052420]

The latinos and asians who mostly came in the last 50 years are of course behind on the assimilation process as they are the last major groups to come here and have the least amount of time here. However there are plenty of asians and latinos especially here in the north that have not even a shred of an ability to speak their old languages or know anything about their former cultures.

Just because you can speak your own language and follow some aspects of your own culture doesn't mean you're not assimilated. Asians are far more assimilated into the US than any other ethnic group.