Top 10 Rifles of the 20th Century.

[Gelgoog]

Ok lets have ourselves a top 10 thread.

Rules:

Most be a rifle, meaning it must:

-Fire a full power or intermediate cartridge
-Must be defined as a rifle, not a light machine gun or submachine gun.
- Has to have been issued and battle tested
- You need to be able to justify you responses

those are the guidelines.

1) Ak47 ( most prolific military patterned rifle in the world hands down. Simplicity, reliability, and cheap to manufacture).

2) Mauser: ( most mass produced rifle system in history. The 98 action is still the most widely used bolt action today. Most hunting rifles are going to be based on it and even most of your military sniper rifles are going to use this system. The 98 with its 3 locking lugs is an extremely safe design and very strong).

3) Stg 43 (first assault rifle, redefined the role of the rifle on the battlefield)

4) Garand: (First General issue semi-automatic rifle to prove itself reliable enough to take the place of the bolt action).


5) FN-FAL: the favored post war rifle of the "free-world", excellent design


6) HK G3: The third most widely issued main battle rifle in the post war world (although it takes a backseat in terms of production compared to the AK47 and FN-FAL, it is every bit as good as its competition).


7 ) AR-15(M16): Excellent weapon system that had some initial teething issues but now has become the most modular rifle of its type. You will find this rifle in the inventories of most Nato countries to some degree even though they might have their own domestic design.

8) Lee-enfield: An excellent bolt action with a very fast action, of any bolt gun fielded you can bet that most soldiers would pick this one. However it ranks lower on the list because it is a weak design ( not that strong) and is a bit more complicated to field strip then its competition. These are the reasons why the design never went far in the post war world. Even the brits were intent on replacing it before ww1 broke out. The design they intended as its replacement the Pattern 1914 Enfield was a much superior design IMHO to any other bolt action ever made. It ended up being the main issue rifle of American troops during ww1 coincidentally.

9) SKS : an excellent post war carbine firing an intermediate cartridge. It has seen widespread use amongst eastern block countries, china and asia. Had the AK design not come when it had, then this would be much higher on the list.

10) Steyr Aug : First truly acceptable bullpup rifle to see military use. By far an excellent design and was ahead of its time with an all plastic housing, plastic magazine, permanently mounted scope and forward hand guard. The design has lead to many imitators (some of whom can do the job just as well if not better: like the Famas) however it gets this spot for setting the trend.

This list was relatively easy to make, and I think you are going to find it hard to disagree with as most people knowledgeable about such things will agree. There are alot of fantastic designs out there that should have made this like and are better firearms, but their limited use kept them from ranking on the list.
I own everything on this list except for the STG43 so I can attest to the strengths of their designs personally.

[hellheaven1987]

10) Steyr Aug : First truly acceptable bullpup rifle to see military use. By far an excellent design and was ahead of its time with an all plastic housing, plastic magazine, permanently mounted scope and forward hand guard. The design has lead to many imitators (some of whom can do the job just as well if not better: like the Famas) however it gets this spot for setting the trend.

Hmm, FAMAS and Steyr Aug came out in same year. If I have to choose, FAMAS would be better due to better appearance.

[Katsumoto]

The M1903 Springfield and Mauser Kar98 for me. Both were excellent, accurate rifles.

[Boyar Son]

The M1903 Springfield and Mauser Kar98 for me. Both were excellent, accurate rifles.

xD

Ok lets have ourselves a top 10 thread.

Rules:

Most be a rifle, meaning it must:

-Fire a full power or intermediate cartridge
-Must be defined as a rifle, not a light machine gun or submachine gun.
- Has to have been issued and battle tested
- You need to be able to justify you responses

those are the guidelines.

1) Ak47 ( most prolific military patterned rifle in the world hands down. Simplicity, reliability, and cheap to manufacture).

2) Mauser: ( most mass produced rifle system in history. The 98 action is still the most widely used bolt action today. Most hunting rifles are going to be based on it and even most of your military sniper rifles are going to use this system. The 98 with its 3 locking lugs is an extremely safe design and very strong).

3) Stg 43 (first assault rifle, redefined the role of the rifle on the battlefield)

4) Garand: (First General issue semi-automatic rifle to prove itself reliable enough to take the place of the bolt action).


5) FN-FAL: the favored post war rifle of the "free-world", excellent design


6) HK G3: The third most widely issued main battle rifle in the post war world (although it takes a backseat in terms of production compared to the AK47 and FN-FAL, it is every bit as good as its competition).


7 ) AR-15(M16): Excellent weapon system that had some initial teething issues but now has become the most modular rifle of its type. You will find this rifle in the inventories of most Nato countries to some degree even though they might have their own domestic design.

8) Lee-enfield: An excellent bolt action with a very fast action, of any bolt gun fielded you can bet that most soldiers would pick this one. However it ranks lower on the list because it is a weak design ( not that strong) and is a bit more complicated to field strip then its competition. These are the reasons why the design never went far in the post war world. Even the brits were intent on replacing it before ww1 broke out. The design they intended as its replacement the Pattern 1914 Enfield was a much superior design IMHO to any other bolt action ever made. It ended up being the main issue rifle of American troops during ww1 coincidentally.

9) SKS : an excellent post war carbine firing an intermediate cartridge. It has seen widespread use amongst eastern block countries, china and asia. Had the AK design not come when it had, then this would be much higher on the list.

10) Steyr Aug : First truly acceptable bullpup rifle to see military use. By far an excellent design and was ahead of its time with an all plastic housing, plastic magazine, permanently mounted scope and forward hand guard. The design has lead to many imitators (some of whom can do the job just as well if not better: like the Famas) however it gets this spot for setting the trend.

This list was relatively easy to make, and I think you are going to find it hard to disagree with as most people knowledgeable about such things will agree. There are alot of fantastic designs out there that should have made this like and are better firearms, but their limited use kept them from ranking on the list.
I own everything on this list except for the STG43 so I can attest to the strengths of their designs personally.

to me it's kinda of difficult to really makes sense of what rifle is best. you went with different reason for all on what is the best you know, like Mauser over garand? would like to see more reasons why to truly compare. or for example, would you choose the Aug on your list or the enfield/mauser if you DM?

[Gelgoog]

xD

to me it's kinda of difficult to really makes sense of what rifle is best. you went with different reason for all on what is the best you know, like Mauser over garand? would like to see more reasons why to truly compare. or for example, would you choose the Aug on your list or the enfield/mauser if you DM?

Alot of factors go into determining the best.

- Proliferation
- Strength of the design
- Service history
- Innovation
- Impact

There are some fantastic designs out there that just came at the wrong time and hence never went much further then trials. For example the G11 should have revolutionized small arms, but it came right when the berlin wall fell and was subsequently dropped due to having to except the poor east germany back into the fold. The Beretta BM59 was essentially a much improved M1 garand (and even better then the m14) however its impact was limited, as was its proliferation.

The rifles that are on that list do so because they scored high in all the criteria I listed. Yes there are better rifles out there, but to base something purely on its performance would a poor route as you would only have the lastest and greatest prototypes up there.

For example the mauser is high on that list because it is an extremely successful design. During the first half of the 20th century, the vast majority of countries adopted it ( or copied it) as their main issue rifle. No bolt action has ever been as successful. The mauser action is so beloved that it is still used in the majority of bolt action hunting rifles around the world. Other designs like the mannlicher, lee-enfield, mosin-nagant became obsolete after the war because their designs are inherently weak compared to the Mauser. For example neither the Lee-enfield nor the Mosin can be safely chambered for cartridges much stronger then they were issued with, this is because the action is weak, it can not stand much higher pressures.
The Lee-enfield for example would blow up in your face if you tried to re chamber it for 8x57 ( a common loading in a mauser). Most of your wartime bolt guns could not stand pressures about 45,000 psi, while your mauer 98 action with its three lockings lucks ( one to divert gas blowback) can stand upwards of 60,000 psi and will not usually have a catastrophic failure until 90,000. For these reason the mauser action is much stronger and safer then any other pre-50s design. This is why hunters choose to use this action and rechamber it for high pressure magnum rounds.

So that is why I chose the mauser because it was the most success military rifle in history, without question.

The lee-enfield is on that list because it was a great firearm, that had a long service history and showed itself to be a very good rifle on the battlefield. Its impact however was not nearly as great as the Mauser nor is its design as good, which is why it is lower on the list.

The Garand is on that list because of it being the first main battle rifle semi -automatic. It gets high points for innovation, impact and service history. The design itself is fairly good but it has a few flaws. Mainly it is complicated to break down and its operating rod has a tendency to break when using more powerful loads then standard milsurp ammunition.

So you can see everything I picked everything on that list and why it was ranked the way it was. When you are determining the "best" you have to be more subjective then looking at something purely on paper. This is why so often then not people can over-estimate a design. If you get historians and gun experts together you can bet that they will agree with 9 out of 10 of those picked on my list. picking the top 10 rifles is actually relatively easy because the choices stand out so easily. If we were to pick handguns then it might be a bit tougher.

That made me jealous. In my country it is illegal to have a plastic gun that shoots BB bullets.

One rifle I missed on the list was the Russian Mosin Nagant model 1891, IIRC also one of the most produced rifles in history and still ocasionally used.

And the StG44 is the official name of the rifle I think you mean. It's successor, the MP45, is what most postwar assault rifles are based on in one way or another.

Actually I could own a Stg44 reproduction if I wanted, but they are far too expensive, something like four grand, and it also uses a proprietary ammunition. Also parts would be very difficult to get.

As for the Mosin, well my list was limited...if I had an 11th spot it would probably be there. However the only merit the design really has is production and service length. The design itself is not very good. It was probably the worst service bolt action in issue during its time, and that is why it did not make the list. They are actually pretty popular here in America because they are so dirt cheap. You could buy one for $69 for a while as the russians are dumping their inventories to the surplus market. Ammo is pretty cheap as well, but those are its only selling points.

You've really got to separate rifles into Bolt-action rifles, Battle-rifles (i.e. (semi)-automatics that use full sized cartridges), and assault-rifles. Comparing across these categories is fairly pointless

The topic was all rifles of the 20th century. Had the topic been top 10 assault rifles, or top post war rifles , then you would have seen a much bigger distinction between the two. Comparing the rifles based upon the criteria that I posted is actually the common method to make such a list. You will see firearm expects making similar lists.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Have to agree with the items on the list. Might have a different order though.

StG 44 would be comparable-to-higher than the AK imo. The AK was very much designed off of the StG 44. Therefore, the AK's greatness is (indirectly) the StG's greatness. Considering that the AK is such a gigantic leap from Russian (or any other) design of the time, I think it's safe to say that we can thank the Germans as well as Mikhail Kalashnikov for that fine rifle.

Of course, when you consider that the AK itself has an incredible host of copies and clones...

With the G3, don't forget that it's basically the head of the H&K family that includes the MP-5 and the PSG-1. Thus, the G3 design has had a profound effect on law enforcement and special forces throughout the globe in one form or another.

A note on the Lee-Enfield: it deserves credit in that it was one of the VERY FEW non-Mauser designs of the early 20th Century to see military service.

Practically all of the major powers used either Mausers or copies. The United States actually purchased the rights to produce the M1903; it is a Mauser clone as well. So although the SMLE may not be a perfect design, it's worth mentioning that it was one of the few independent ones.

As to the Mosin...
well if you've handled/shot one you know they're kinda crude. The bolt is pretty rudimentary; certainly no Mauser.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

The SMLE 303. The wiki says they're still being used in Afghanistan due to superior accuracy and range.

[hellheaven1987]

The SMLE 303. The wiki says they're still being used in Afghanistan due to superior accuracy and range.

And penetration. During Soviet invasion Russian found it hard to against Lee-Enfield since it could penetrate their body armor in longer range than AK.

[Sphere]

You've really got to separate rifles into Bolt-action rifles, Battle-rifles (i.e. (semi)-automatics that use full sized cartridges), and assault-rifles. Comparing across these categories is fairly pointless

[Gorbaczow]

I guess you did fire those rifles because otherwise those statements are rubbish.

[Lysimachos11]

I own everything on this list except for the STG43 so I can attest to the strengths of their designs personally.

That made me jealous. In my country it is illegal to have a plastic gun that shoots BB bullets.

One rifle I missed on the list was the Russian Mosin Nagant model 1891, IIRC also one of the most produced rifles in history and still ocasionally used.

And the StG44 is the official name of the rifle I think you mean. It's successor, the MP45, is what most postwar assault rifles are based on in one way or another.

[Azog 150]

8) Lee-enfield: An excellent bolt action with a very fast action, of any bolt gun fielded you can bet that most soldiers would pick this one. However it ranks lower on the list because it is a weak design ( not that strong) and is a bit more complicated to field strip then its competition. These are the reasons why the design never went far in the post war world. Even the brits were intent on replacing it before ww1 broke out. The design they intended as its replacement the Pattern 1914 Enfield was a much superior design IMHO to any other bolt action ever made. It ended up being the main issue rifle of American troops during ww1 coincidentally.

I am not going to argue with your list (Don't really know enough about weapons to be honest). However, I would like to point out that the Lee Enfield served as Britain's (And Commonwealths) main rifle throughout World War 1, 2 and the Korean War.

It is also still the the official rifle of the Indian Police Force making it the longest ever serving bolt action rifle still in official service. Also, in the recent Nepal Civil War, government forces were issued with the rifle. To top that off, Lee Enfield wielding Taliban are still being encountered.

17 million are thought to have been produced.

Plus, unlike other bolt rifle, it could fit two magazines, giving it 10 rounds which was pretty unique at the time, and consequently gave it a faster firing rate then most other bolt actions (With the British soldier trained to do the 'mad minute'- firing 15 well aimed rounds in a minute at a distance of 300 yards. However, the average rifleman could pull off 25 rounds, with some pulling off 40. This was not possible with other bolt-action rifles as they could hold less rounds)


Not sure if you have considered this or not. Just pointing some stuff out.

[Nik]

3) Stg 43 (first assault rifle, redefined the role of the rifle on the battlefield)

And the StG44 is the official name of the rifle I think you mean. It's successor, the MP45, is what most postwar assault rifles are based on in one way or another.

AFAIK both of you are not 100% correct.
If I reckon correctly, the weapon begun its life under the name of MKb (Maschinenkarabiner - Machine Carabine) 42, and the next version witch changes to the breach system became the Maschinenpistole 43, and the final version with minor changes for mass production was renamed Sturmgewehr 44 (Assault Rifle), as Hitler wanted something awe-inspiring (for the same reasons the Rifleman was renamed to Grenadier in 1943).

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

As to the Mosin...
well if you've handled/shot one you know they're kinda crude. The bolt is pretty rudimentary; certainly no Mauser.

Russian style.

Practically every modern Russian gun has a couple of defining characteristics: relative crudity, questionable accuracy, but unmatched ruggedness and simplicity. Nagant revolvers or AK-47's can be made by monkeys and used in a monkey army without jamming .

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Hoooo yes; very Russian indeed.

The Mosin is attractive in its own way (I rather like them myself), but they are pretty basic. Lol sometimes the bolt seems so loose that it'll fall out when you shoot.

I like the Czar's style better:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They may not have designed them, but they sure had good taste.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

there's a reason the british army kept using the 1895 bolt action lee-enfield after every other army had first adopted semi-automatic rifles, and then assault rifles

[Darkhorse]

The Lee Enfield was tougher and more reliable than you give it credit for. Was still in front-line British army service until 1957 as the number 3 and 4 rifles were superb. Very rarely would a British soldier drop his rifle for another, they knew they were equipped with the best. Even after 1957 the rifle still saw service as a snipers weapon in its basic sniping form until the introduction of the Accuracy International L96 in the 80's. However the L42 variant of the Enfield, re-chambered in 7.62mm was in British service until very recently. The L96/AW family have some credentials with the old Enfield (Worth noting they are all being phased out partially by the L115 LLR .338/308. As far as I know, the only Enfield rifle to flop was the No.5 Jungle carbine, which fell apart as the wood rotted and suffered with its shorter barrel. There was moderately successful silenced, semi automatic, and re chambered (which includes 7.62mm NATO, 30.06 US, and 7.92mm Mauser) variants as well as the superb basic No.3 and No.4 rifles.

IMO the L85A2, I stress again, A2 variant, should be up there. It's an incredibly accurate weapon, British army marksman tests had to be redesigned for the L85 series. The same ranges which were used with SMLE's, Bren's and L1A1's were not tough enough to test the accuracy of the new weapon and its shooter. The A2 variant is unfortunately plagued with the stigma the A1 received (and deserved.) The A2 is proclaimed by the MoD as being extremely reliable, and is coping well with the desert conditions of Afghanistan. The gun is an excellent piece of kit and the few problems it has are common to the majority of bullpups. Although expensive, the rifle has very little recoil, and is balanced well.

Bring on the L85 bashing.

[Carach]

i dont know the technical side of guns tbh, but im gonna list some of mine (mainly due to looks heh )

AK has to go in for reasons i think most know of.
The enfield mentioned in the OP too.
the the L85A2 as mentioned above. (always liked the gun even when it was a bit dodgey in earlier versions just because it looked different heh)

pretty much go for most of what the OP has otherwise through what ive heard of the weapons.

Might throw in the old M14 which is seeing a comeback in afghanistan though (for the increased ranges)

[AK47]

1. M16/M4
2. AK47
3. G3
4. Garand
5. Enfield No4
6. K98
7. FN FAL
8. M14 - still used by special forces.
9. Steyr Aug
10 G36

Based on looks:
1. AK47
2. Enfield no4
3. Mosin Nagant
4. K98
5. Steyr Aug
6. Garand
7. G36
8. M16
9. SKS
10. L85A2

[AK47]

Might throw in the old M14 which is seeing a comeback in afghanistan though (for the increased ranges)

I think its a great gun in terms of firepower and range.
At one point in the Vietnam War it was prefered over the M16.