Knowledge of good and evil... and the commandments.

[Nimthill]

This topic is pertaining to a question that has been bothering me for some time.

According to the old testament, God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden because they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge. This gave Adan and Eve the ability to discern good from evil. Some time later however, God gave Moses the 10 commandments.

Now the question is, why did God gave these commandments? If humans had the ability to discern good from evil, these commandments would not be necessary (unless the things forbidden are not evil). If they did not have this ability, why did God expel them from Eden?

[germ14]

The Ten Commandments are generally thought to be a simplified version of the Law or all of Genesis-Deuteronomy. The Law was given as God's standard, which none can inherently live up to, therefore we need Jesus etc., not so the Israelites would know good or evil, because that was already known.

[Fiyenyaa]

Because god, the all-knowing and all-powerful author of the absolute and unchanging moral law of the universe changes his mind an awful lot.

[Lysimachus]

This topic is pertaining to a question that has been bothering me for some time.

According to the old testament, God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden because they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge. This gave Adan and Eve the ability to discern good from evil. Some time later however, God gave Moses the 10 commandments.

Now the question is, why did God gave these commandments? If humans had the ability to discern good from evil, these commandments would not be necessary (unless the things forbidden are not evil). If they did not have this ability, why did God expel them from Eden?

The problem is, every human's interpretation of what is good and evil is different. Let me give a simple example. Hitler thought killing non-Aryans was a good thing because he believed that it would cleanse the world and he would follow it up by getting Germans to migrate in to the vacant lands, to settle in them and breed for his master race. Most people of course found that all entirely evil. The Commandments in my opinion, was simply God's guideline so as to what was right and what was wrong regardless of human thought.

[Elfdude]

The problem is, every human's interpretation of what is good and evil is different. Let me give a simple example. Hitler thought killing non-Aryans was a good thing because he believed that it would cleanse the world and he would follow it up by getting Germans to migrate in to the vacant lands, to settle in them and breed for his master race. Most people of course found that all entirely evil. The Commandments in my opinion, was simply God's guideline so as to what was right and what was wrong regardless of human thought.

Considering only two of the commandments are really 'laws' the rest are based on god and our social dealings I would say that god's interpretation of morality is wrong. Coveting thy neighbor's wife, honoring thy father and mother etc. are regularly disregarded in the bible anyways.

[Lysimachus]

Considering only two of the commandments are really 'laws' the rest are based on god and our social dealings I would say that god's interpretation of morality is wrong. Coveting thy neighbor's wife, honoring thy father and mother etc. are regularly disregarded in the bible anyways.

Well being a nihilist, i'm not saying God is right in any way i'm just offering my interpretation to the question posed in this thread. He created ten rules which were to form the basis of human morality and these were interpreted by people throughout different times of history in however way they see fit.

[Nimthill]

The problem is, every human's interpretation of what is good and evil is different. Let me give a simple example. Hitler thought killing non-Aryans was a good thing because he believed that it would cleanse the world and he would follow it up by getting Germans to migrate in to the vacant lands, to settle in them and breed for his master race. Most people of course found that all entirely evil. The Commandments in my opinion, was simply God's guideline so as to what was right and what was wrong regardless of human thought.

So in essence, Humans don't actually discern good and evil. Rather nasty of God to kick us out then, no?

[Wolfgang von Zweibrücken]

This topic is pertaining to a question that has been bothering me for some time.

According to the old testament, God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden because they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge. This gave Adan and Eve the ability to discern good from evil. Some time later however, God gave Moses the 10 commandments.

Now the question is, why did God gave these commandments? If humans had the ability to discern good from evil, these commandments would not be necessary (unless the things forbidden are not evil). If they did not have this ability, why did God expel them from Eden?

I believe it reads "Gave them knowledge of good and evil" - in other words, they now knew that good and evil exist, that doesn't mean they can necessarily discern the one from the other.

Gen3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves girdles.

I think the point was that they lost their innocence, not that they developed an innate and hereditary talent for judging what is good and what is evil.

[cfmonkey45]

This topic is pertaining to a question that has been bothering me for some time.

According to the old testament, God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden because they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge. This gave Adan and Eve the ability to discern good from evil. Some time later however, God gave Moses the 10 commandments.

Now the question is, why did God gave these commandments? If humans had the ability to discern good from evil, these commandments would not be necessary (unless the things forbidden are not evil). If they did not have this ability, why did God expel them from Eden?

I don't think that I can answer this without bringing up the Euthyphro dilemma. Essentially, does God will it because it is good? In this case, this would suppose that there is a metaphysical concept of good greater than God that causes him to act this way; in essence, He is not omnipotent, and still subject to a form of Natural Law. Or, is it good because God wills it? This supposes that there is essentially a form of nihilism that governs the universe, punctuated by a form of Natural Law. Regardless of either option, concept of Natural Law is axiomatic to the Judeo-Christian world view, although the latter explanation would most perfectly accommodate an appropriate theodicy, or an explanation of suffering. In short, God wills that there is suffering for an unstated purpose, and also wills that certain action, arbitrary in nature, are "good" and "bad".

Nevertheless, in order to fully explain and comprehend, you would have to be given a historical context into both the Old Testament Law and their creation myths. The most widely accepted historical explanation for the compilation of the Old Testament is the Documentary Hypothesis. In essence, the Old Testament was written in two original version after about 1,000 BCE, the Elohist, those who use the name "Elohim" for God, translated as GOD, and are predominantly situated in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Jahwist, who predominantly use YHWH for God, translated as the LORD, and situated in the Southern Kingdom of Judah. These sources were revised, probably, about 3-4 times by what are known as the Deutonomist Sources, during the later reigns of the Kings of Judah, principally the successors of King Hezekiah, circa 600 BCE, and the Priestly Sources during the Babylonian Exile, circa 500 BCE.

Now, taking this knowledge, we can simply ascertain from internal sources within the Bible that the prevailing belief was that, although God was wholly known to the ancestors of the Israelites prior to the Egyptian Exile, it was only after Moses' Revelation that they learned of His name, YHWH. Thus, when reading through the Books of the Pentateuch, it would be wise to keep an eye out for these shifts. For example, in the Creation Epic (Genesis 1:1-Genesis 2:3), the name for God used is "God", or Elohim, denoting it as from the Elohist camp, and, most importantly, the original Hebrew is in a poetic prose. Similarly, in the myth of Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:4-4:26), the word used is LORD, which is a translation of YHWH. According to to the Third Commandment, it is a sin to use the name of God explicitly, so whenever יהוה appears, they are supposed to instead utter "Adonai", or Lord. This is because it was believed in the Bronze Age that to utter a God's name was to invoke them, or otherwise force them to intervene. The concept of God, specifically, being forced to do this is blasphemy. God is omnipotent, and not forced to do anything.

Now, I think at this point I should also elaborate on what exactly is and what isn't the Law and more specifically what it actually is in the context of Judaism and Christianity. According to Rabbinic tradition, gentiles are considered "righteous" if they follow what are called the Noahide Laws, seven statutes that were alleged given to Noah and implied in the Garden of Eden.

1. Idolatry, or the worship of False Gods, is forbidden.
2. Sexual Immorality is forbidden.
3. Murder is forbidden.
4. Blasphemy is forbidden.
5. Theft is forbidden.
6. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden.
7. Justice is required. You must set up Just courts and Governments.

Coincidentally, these are the statutes required by Christians, the majority being Gentiles, spoken of in Acts 15 at the Council of Jerusalem:

22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

Now, this nevertheless brings us back to the Law of Moses, or the 613 Mitzvot. The Ten Commandments are the First Ten. As we all know, they were, according to belief, given to Moses on Sinai to be placed in the Ark of the Covenant. Its details are as follows:

10 "Have them make a chest of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. 12 Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. 13 Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. 14 Insert the poles into the rings on the sides of the chest to carry it. 15 The poles are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed. 16 Then put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you.

17 "Make a Mercy Seat (or Atonement Cover) of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. 18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. 21 Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you. 22 There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

Notice the Cherubim. They also are ordered to adorn the Tabernacle, and are representative of God's law, since the fashioning of idols is prohibited (i.e., God himself cannot be manifested, because the "Living God" cannot be contained in a mere idol, however, cherubim are kosher, so long as they aren't worshiped). One of the only other times it occurs in the Torah is after the Fall:

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

In my opinion, this is not a coincidence. Moreover, I believe that it was a theological metaphor that stated that God's Law kept us from the Tree of Knowledge, and that all of mankind is awaiting the Olam Haba, or the "World to Come," heralded by the Jewish Messiah, who will establish the Kingdom of God. This was inherited by Christianity, since biblically, Christians expect the return of Jesus Christ to bring about a similar New World (a consistent theme throughout the Revelation of John of Patmos), in that, the Heavens and the Earth be reformed to bring about apocatasis (sp.?), or a reversion back to paradise.


Hope that helps, although I've only hit the tip of the iceberg on this matter.

If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me.

[Adrian]

There is no good or evil just socially accepted views and ideas.