How did micro-states' survive?

[Farnan]

I mean Andorra, Monaco, San Mariano and Lichtenstein?

Why did they avoid being united into the states they are associated with (Monaco and San Mariano to Italy, Lichtenstein to Austria and Andorra to Spain) like all the rest of the constituent states?

In the state-making story they just don't make sense. They shouldn't be around.

[antaeus]

i've often wondered this...

i know monaco survived by accident... the area of nice/savoy that surrounds monaco was given to france during the period of italian reunification in order to gain french recognition of the new italian state... and this happened before monaco's inevitable inclusion into the italian state... so they lucked out.

andorra survived because technically it's not an independent state, but one that is ruled from both france and spain already... as france and spain were allies for most of the last 300 years, it was never annexed by either because the status quo was maintained.

from what i've read, san marino survived because it's not on any major roads.. so the armies marching in the wars of unification simply forgot about it. wikipedia would probably tell us more.

i'm not sure about lichtenstein, but it's survival is probably no more miraculous than luxembourg's... i imagine it's lord was powerful in the austrian government so it lucked out when it came to unification.

[Farnan]

Monaco - According to most state building theories, the French should have marched in an took the enclave. It offers benefits for France and no real losses.

Andorra, again France or Spain should have, according to theory, annexed it. Especially after the Napoleonic Wars.

Same with Lichtenstein and San Mariano.

(to a lesser extent Luxembourg too, but it is on the border of two major powers so there is more reason).

[Taxandrius]

Ehhh, Luxemburg didn't survive: it was conquered multiple times, 'passed' multiple times too. In 1830, Luxemburg (which was dutch atm) supported the Belgian rebels, but when the Belgians gained independence, the Luxemburgers were left with the dutchies. When king Willem III died in 1890 without leaving a male heair, the personal union ended and Luxemburg became an independent nation.

[antaeus]

According to most state building theories

i guess you have to look at what these little states do that benefits major powers... in the last century, most have been either tax havens or banking centres which deal with a lot of under the table clients... so their survival during the wars of the last century probably owes as much to the under the table financial deals they offer as it does with any other state building theory. powerful industrialists in the west used places like monaco to bypass the tax systems of their home nations... thus statelets were too important to the wealthy of the west to allow them to be swallowed by large nations. this continues to this day.

prior to this, we have to look at other factors..

there's the powerful friends factor... many statelets had powerful feudal lords who were also members of larger power structures... if a small state is protected from foreign invaders by a large one, and protected from absorption into that large state because of the feudal nature of it's politics... then that statelet is in effect in limbo.. as in the case of lichtenstein.. at the right moments it was protected by vested interest in austria.. once it survived the 1870s, it was secured by its banking assets - there are more registered companies in the lichtenstein than there are people... this ensures its continued survival..

interestingly tho.. there has been a significant crack down on tax havens over the past decade... the UN has threatened to publish a black list of nations, which has in turn encouraged those nations threatened with inclusion to try to at least partially legitimise their tax systems.. it means we have the ludicrous situation where countries such as the UAE which has no tax, has a formal dual taxation agreement with the united states... for the appearance of keeping things out in the open..

[Farnan]

i guess you have to look at what these little states do that benefits major powers... in the last century, most have been either tax havens or banking centres which deal with a lot of under the table clients... so their survival during the wars of the last century probably owes as much to the under the table financial deals they offer as it does with any other state building theory. powerful industrialists in the west used places like monaco to bypass the tax systems of their home nations... thus statelets were too important to the wealthy of the west to allow them to be swallowed by large nations. this continues to this day

This is true for this period. Also, we live after the era of West European State Building (ended in 1870 with the declaration of the German Empire). But not true in the earlier period.

But I think you're right antea... They just don't fit how its supposed to be.

there's the powerful friends factor... many statelets had powerful feudal lords who were also members of larger power structures... if a small state is protected from foreign invaders by a large one, and protected from absorption into that large state because of the feudal nature of it's politics... then that statelet is in effect in limbo.. as in the case of lichtenstein.. at the right moments it was protected by vested interest in austria.. once it survived the 1870s, it was secured by its banking assets - there are more registered companies in the lichtenstein than there are people... this ensures its continued survival..

But why didn't the Emperor of Austria annex it formally? It was already a fiefdom of the Hapsburgs, and by controlling Lichtenstein it can control the banking assets.

And what stopped Napoleon III from taking Monaco? The French Feudal system was dead, and he controlled the surrounding territory. He could even claim it as an attack on the last remnant of the Ancien Regime.

Hellheavan: Some treaty or the fact it won a revolt does not keep a state alive during state building periods. What matters most is the ability to maintain a significant standing army.

[antaeus]

But why didn't the Emperor of Austria annex it formally? It was already a fiefdom of the Hapsburgs, and by controlling Lichtenstein it can control the banking assets.

And what stopped Napoleon III from taking Monaco? The French Feudal system was dead, and he controlled the surrounding territory. He could even claim it as an attack on the last remnant of the Ancien Regime.

that would put lichtenstein within the austrian financial system... the whole benefit of its existance was that it was not subject to austrian taxation or banking transparency laws. the austrians themselves benefited from this by investing their wealth outside the austrian taxation system... but inside austria's sphere of military influence and control... safe, but separate. tax was for the poor.. not for those who could find ways around it.

the same has been true of france and monaco since they moved into banking - monaco has been a tax haven since the renaissance...it was no threat to french territory or authority - it was of more value to those rich french nobles. a cynic would suggest that it didn't take the french republicans long before they were building wealth on the scale of the former ancien regime anyway... monaco offered them a place to keep their money which was out of sight of the republican government they were a part of - but protected from the hands of foreign governments like the british or austrians...

perhaps its no co-incidence that each of the major nations (germany, austria, italy, france) seems to have it's own tax haven microstate on it's border...

[hellheaven1987]

Hellheavan: Some treaty or the fact it won a revolt does not keep a state alive during state building periods. What matters most is the ability to maintain a significant standing army.

Your case does not apply on Liechtenstein, which disbanded its force in 1830s.

By the way, I cannot stop my urge to post this, sorry Farnan!!!

Liechtenstein in Japanese anime APH!!!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For unknown reason I feel I just deal a fatal blow on this thread.

[antaeus]

Your case does not apply on Liechtenstein, which disbanded its force in 1830s.


For unknown reason I feel I just deal a fatal blow on this thread.

not at all.. people get too tied up with armies and wars.. which aren't the only force at play in state building.

money is the most important factor in history... not armies or generals or wars.

imo history is about wealth... and armies are only one way of acquiring and protecting it

[kesa82]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For unknown reason I feel I just deal a fatal blow on this thread.

Thank you very much for that ! copy / downloading images now.

To --not really --answer the OP : as for Liechtenstein ; Annexation ? Over my dead body !

[Exarch]

I mean Andorra, Monaco, San Mariano and Lichtenstein?

Why did they avoid being united into the states they are associated with (Monaco and San Mariano to Italy, Lichtenstein to Austria and Andorra to Spain) like all the rest of the constituent states?

In the state-making story they just don't make sense. They shouldn't be around.

noone bothered invading them-kinda like they're so small and insignificant that noone could be bothered
like in the teutonic caMpaign, i cant be bothered invading the little villages

[Farnan]

Yea, but most of them are pretty rich too.

[Exarch]

Yea, but most of them are pretty rich too.

most of them like monaco didnt get rich until the 20th century or so when they became tax havens or gambling capitals

[Farnan]

Yea, but they still increased the tax base. Especially for little cost.

And it wouldn't have been the first time a tiny nation was annexed.

According to Charles Tilly in 1490 there were 200 states in what is now Europe.

[Exarch]

i'd be interested to know how tiny countries like belgium and the netherlands survived-why they werent absorbed as early as the middle ages

[hellheaven1987]

Well, Lichtenstein's survive was largely because Swizerland support. Without that, it would bankrupt after WWI, and probably annexed by Hitler in WWII.

[Farnan]

Well, Lichtenstein's survive was largely because Swizerland support. Without that, it would bankrupt after WWI, and probably annexed by Hitler in WWII.

But why did Switzerland support it? Why didn't they just take it?

And why didn't Austria-Hungary just annex it? Who would be able to stop them, much less willing?

Exarch: The Netherlands wasn't independent in the early Era of West European State Building, during the Middle Era of West European State Building was pretty powerful, and wasn't a wimp during the late Era of West European State Building. Further it had the money and population to maintain a significant military.

Belgium wasn't independent till the Late Era of Wes European State Building, and Antwerp has money. Further, it also had the money and population to maintain a significant military.

[hellheaven1987]

But why did Switzerland support it? Why didn't they just take it?

And why didn't Austria-Hungary just annex it? Who would be able to stop them, much less willing?

It was a buffer state between Austria and Switzerland, which was not too friendly to eachothers. The relation did not show up until post-WWI, which all those humanity reason would prevent Switzerland to do anything to annex Liechtenstein, plus Switzerland was quite poor at that time. Lastly, it seems that Liechtenstein was a vassal of Austria-Hungary, since it was ruled that Liechtenstein was not bounded to serve Austria after WWI.

Exarch: The Netherlands wasn't independent in the early Era of West European State Building, during the Middle Era of West European State Building was pretty powerful, and wasn't a wimp during the late Era of West European State Building. Further it had the money and population to maintain a significant military.

One word: Dutch Revolt/Thirty Years War. Case close.

Belgium wasn't independent till the Late Era of Wes European State Building, and Antwerp has money. Further, it also had the money and population to maintain a significant military.

Another one word: Belgium Revolution/United Kingdom of the Netherlands. Case close.

It can be found in Wiki, please don't be lazy.

[Lysimachos11]

i'd be interested to know how tiny countries like belgium and the netherlands survived-why they werent absorbed as early as the middle ages

Rather insulting comment. The Netherlands was Europe's wealthiest power in the 17th Century, and still the world's third colonial power in 1945, after France and Britain. In any case, Belgium and the Netherlands aren't micro-states.

Ehhh, Luxemburg didn't survive: it was conquered multiple times, 'passed' multiple times too. In 1830, Luxemburg (which was dutch atm) supported the Belgian rebels, but when the Belgians gained independence, the Luxemburgers were left with the dutchies. When king Willem III died in 1890 without leaving a male heair, the personal union ended and Luxemburg became an independent nation.

I have to dig in my memory, but I think indeed Luxemburg could not be inherited by a female heir. IIRC Germany could at some point claim Luxemburg because it was part of the German Zollverein (like Dutch Limburg), but obviously the French did everything to prevent this, and Luxemburg being independent was the only workable compromise.

As for Liechtenstein, I think the reason it is still independent has to do with the fact that it could not be subjected to any other German power because it held privileges in the Holy Roman Empire from the Middle Ages. Why noone bothered to take it after the HRE was disbanded I don't remember, but it might have to do with it still being illegal to claim Liechtenstein because of it's ancient privileges.

[Manco]

i'd be interested to know how tiny countries like belgium and the netherlands survived-why they werent absorbed as early as the middle ages

Belgium and The Netherlands are hardly tiny, they're 10th and 8th in the EU respectively.plus they have a historically large wealth and population density.

And whether they survived, The entire Middle AGes they weren't independent with the Netherlands becoming it with the 80 Years War and Belgium only just prior to the Industrialisation.