All hail the mighty Sphendonetai!

[Argeus the Paladin]

Is it just me, or is it true that slingers are incredibly useful, especially if massed?

- AP attacks.
- HUGE amount of ammo.
- Dirt cheap.
- Fast moving -> Outrunning Thorakitai, Argyraspides and Triarii in most situation.
- Loose formation -> less damage from other ranged attackers.

If only they can fling stones at city gates and damage it, then I'm afraid I'll play a game of Sphendonetai Total War next time.

Anyone thinking the same?

P.S. This is among my first posts, so apologies if I said anything stupid!

[athanaric]

Is it just me, or is it true that slingers are incredibly useful, especially if massed?

- AP attacks.
- HUGE amount of ammo. -> Celtic Slingers have even more (thus being the most important missile unit for Celts, Romans, and Suebi).
- Dirt cheap.
- Fast moving -> Outrunning Thorakitai, Argyraspides and Triarii in most situation. -> Anything will outrun these units.
- Loose formation -> less damage from other ranged attackers. -> They still lose to archers though.

That said, using too many of them in your armies is ahistorical, as well as frowned upon in Multiplayer mode.

Try Rhodian Slingers, they have even better range plus some basic armour. Make perfect border garrisons (together with Cretan Archers).

If you're campaigning in Asia, use Eastern Slingers. They are identical to Sphendonetai in everything except the name.

[-iceblade^]

i feel the same way. place them in front off your army at the beginning of the battle, pepper the enemy, and when the enemy charge, withdraw... encircle your enemy with your troops and pepper them still as they get hacked to pieces. finish by killing off the routed enemy with your fresh cavalry and general :p.

never gets old

[Revan The Great]

Slingers are definitely quite the powerful support unit - I would say maybe even a little too powerful. I still find it hard to believe that these pebbles are slung with such force to kill through chainmail or collapse shields, but I'll let the historical experts have their way here. I imagine the main danger is actually the concussive force delivered through your helmet if you happen to be struck on the head.

I still prefer to use archers though, they just seem more 'likely' than slingers, though oftentimes I'll mix both with some peltasts in a cluster in front of my main battle line to 'fill the air with different projectiles'. Sometimes the effect on the enemy is quite gratifying when javelins, arrows, and rocks open up on them all at once..

[torongill]

They were not pebbles really, when the slingers were professionals, but lead almond and acorn shaped projectiles. And according to slinging.org the projectiles can be shot with speeds up to 400 kph, which on the pain scale is quite above the "ouch" range and more like "yo this $hit is lethal". True, against plate armor(which is what the muscle cuirass is) they won't do that much of penetration, but neither would arrows. More damage is done on uncovered parts like face and limbs, but against flexible armor they're really good since a lot of the force is transmitted to the body through the armor. The slingshot effectiveness was in something else - they could and did break shields. And until the romans dressed in mail, the shield was the primary means of protection for pretty much everyone, that's why they were so big.
That said, slingers are really vulnerable to arrows and cavalry attacks(especially in some mods). If massed they're useful, the thing is that they were never massed. Pro slingers and archers and javelineers didn't grow on trees. I've said it before, Hannibal had with himself 2 000 balearic slinger mercs when he started on his journey to Italy. In an army of 80-90 000 men. Even if 2/3 of them survived the attempt to plant the Carthaginian flag on Mont Blanc, there were 1600 in an army of 30-35 000 men at Trebia, which, transmitted into RTW numbers means no more than 1 unit in a full stack. True, there were probably more slingers in general, but their quality was dubious(they were either old men, boys or simply too poor to afford even basic armament).

[Knonfoda]

My entire ranged troops consists of 2 units of slingers (usually balearic slingers) as Rome, and one of Cretan archers. The destruction is impressive, usually I kill from 5% to 20% of the enemy army just like that.

[Fleischer]

Indeed, slingers are deadly, and should definately not be underestimated. They are great for softening your opponent before engaging him in melee. Plus, they are really cheap. Their cost - to - kill ratio (Kudos to anyone who gets the reference) is really impressive.

[Anubis88]

Does anyone know why the Romans can't recruit the Rhodian Slingers?

[Knonfoda]

Or Balearic Slingers for that reason?

[torongill]

A WAG(wild-аss guess) on my part points that these units are either faction-specific or(more historical) mercenary-only. I certainly have no problem recruiting Balearics as mercs in Corsica and Sardine. Remember, if someone took over Roma, he wouldn't be able to sprout legionary stacks like mad.

[athanaric]

Only Lusotannan and Carthage have recruitable Balearic Slingers, with the Rhodian guys it's all Hellenic factions (except perhaps Baktria), plus Hai, Getai, and Pontos. That doesn't answer the question why, though. All the more because the Rhodian guys as well as Syracusan Hoplites are actually in the EDU for Romans, yet they can't recruit them.

[torongill]

Well, ownership in the EDU does not equal recruitment, as you know. There has to be AOR availability in the descr_buildings.txt if I'm not mistaken. And I don't really understand what's the fuss. The only thing you would gain is that you can retrain them and maybe give them +1 exp if they're recruited in a Type IV settlement.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Perhaps ownership is tied to the roster available for customs battles at these cases?

Slingers are perhaps a tad too effective at times, I ponder if I should set a house rule of not using them against enemy general's...

[ROFL Copter]

For me 2 units of Cretans is all I use.

[athanaric]

Well, ownership in the EDU does not equal recruitment, as you know. There has to be AOR availability in the descr_buildings.txt if I'm not mistaken. And I don't really understand what's the fuss. The only thing you would gain is that you can retrain them and maybe give them +1 exp if they're recruited in a Type IV settlement.

Personally, I'm not that much into experience boni (though I will mercilessly exploit them if given the chance). The thing that really bugs me is retraining. I just hate the sight of a unit that has taken losses and cannot be retrained. This happens a lot with fancy mercs that nobody can retrain, such as Worgozez, Balearic Slingers (merc version), and Kretan Archers (merc version).
I hope EB II will feature retrainable mercs, like TATW for example.

For me 2 units of Cretans is all I use.

Until you run into armoured Horse Archers.

[Knonfoda]

The thing that really bugs me is retraining. I just hate the sight of a unit that has taken losses and cannot be retrained.

I wholeheartedly agree, its really annoying to see some units taking casualties and there being no way of retraining them short of hiring another entire unit just to shore up the losses.

Didn't the Roman armies of both republicans and imperial times have contingents of both kretan archers and balearic slingers? I like it that kretan archers can be recruited, but why exactly were balearic and rhodian slingers excluded from Rome's recruitment pool?

[dbug]

I never recruit mercs myself, unless I see Balearic Slingers around....

[torongill]

Playing the Romani campaign, I recruit a lot of mercs, since that's the only way to get cretan archers and balearic/rhodian slingers. Also in Thrace one has to be completely devoid of rational thought not to recruit thracian peltastas and/or Galatian naked fanatics. True, they cannot be retrained, but they can be complemented as in "recruit more of the same mercs and fill up your veterans. True, they gain exp at a slower rate, but they still gain it. I'm not saying I'm not inclined to retrain the mercenary units if allowed to do so, on the contrary. But I see the current state of affairs as a way to make sure you don't abuse the system and don't overuse your mercenaries in favor of your national troops.

[athanaric]

Playing the Romani campaign, I recruit a lot of mercs, since that's the only way to get cretan archers and balearic/rhodian slingers.

You could just take Crete, and build a lvl 4 regional MIC there...

Mercs are great for Romans, especially the missile guys you mentioned, but Thraikioi Prodromoi as well, to make up for your lack of cavalry. I also tend to hire a lot of Bastarnae falxmen when playing SPQR.

[torongill]

Didn't know about Crete, you're making me feel sorry I gave it to KH
Why settle for falxmen, when you can build regional city barracks in Tylis/Serdike and recruit Rhomphaia butchers(Elite Thracian infantry)? Not to mention that you will be able to recruit galatian heavy infantry that way