Vassalage and Puppet Kingdoms... how?

[wimlore]

This is more of a question than a guide, obviously. I've moddified the game to last 900 turns (0.5 years per turn, as it should be!) and started an epic HRE campaign. Other than the 900 turns, the game is retrofit mod vanilla mtw2 1.5. The game is on all the hardest settings, and currently I have 3 vassals and hold 75 regions. My goal by the 70th region was to have 12 vassals, but for some reason I got stuck at 3. its turn 200, and i got 700 more to figure out how to turn the remaining christian kings into puppets.

The base of my question is this: What does one need to possess or do in order to make the enemy become a vassal?

From what ive seen I can tell theres no straight formula to force a kingdom to become your vassal. My first vassal was Scotland. I took over York while they were seiging London, we were on good terms until i sought to save England from being destroyed(im trying to keep every christian kingdom alive during the entire campaign). With one swift sack of york, and less than 1 turn of warring, Scotland came to me with a peace offer and I countered with vassalage.

Meanwhile... my second vassal, Milan, whom I had been harassing and terrorizing their capitol (and last region) for over 20 turns (thats 10 years in my game) finally came around and seaked peace... again I countered with vassal terms and they accepted. Our relations were completely different from my relations with Scotland. Which i thought was weird.

Poland was the third and most interesting. I launched a crusade on their capitol, and took another one of their main towns. The war lasted maybe 6 or 7 turns. They too, came seeking peace, and I was able to counter with a vassalage. Poland however held a lot of territory in the east, and is currently my most powerfull vassal.

HOWEVER!! When I warred with England for 30 turns, they did nothing but refuse every vassalage offer i made. I could have offered England my entire realm minus my capitol for their vassalage, but they would never accept it. There were times when we were at war, and our relations were leaning towards good, yet they still wouldnt even consider vassalage. They made peace offers, and I tried countering with vassalage, but they still refused. Finally I deemed it a folly, sealed off the English channel with an Imperial Armada so the Danish would stop harrassing the English, and called it good. War is stirring with me and England again, and this time I want their crown!!

The Danes... theres another unruly group of pagan rabble... All the danes have is Arhus, ive never taken a territory from them, i simply beat them to every neighboring rebel territory in the early turns and they have never had a second territory since. Of course they went to war with me! But it was the same thing... 30ish turns of war and endless sea battles and land fights (i made sure i won the majority) and the only thing they accept is peace. By this point Im starting to think Milan was an isolated event. Or perhaps 3 vassals is the max?

Its the same story with Portugal and France, ive beaten them to pulps, stayed out of their territory for about 10 turns. stayed IN there territories for about 10 turns. Blockades, military dominance, nothing works. I havent even tried with sicily/venice/hungary/spain. I figure if I cant shackle the west whats my hopes of turning the balkans into puppets?

Ultimately im very confused. Im not sure If I need either more dominance, less dominance, more fighting, less fighting, more sacking or what. I also thought it had something to do with MY reputation, since it was fairly high when I got my first 3 vassals, but was fairly low when I continuously failed with Portugal, France and Denmark.

Any tips at all to obtaining a vassal would be very helpful. Cold hard facts are what im hoping for, but any insight on how to shove this horrible jagged treaty down a king's throat would awesome.

[Jiub]

Sorry i haven`t read everything you wrote, but a tip on convincing other factions to do what you want: Good Reputation. If you have A trustworthy reputation or higher everything is easier. Asking for things is just easier, especially vassals, you put them to their knees and if they only have one settlement and are separated from the world, vassalage is easy as creampie. Especially if you give one or two regions back to them.

Just keep them far from your other vassals, infighting ain`t good.

[wimlore]

Sorry i haven`t read everything you wrote, but a tip on convincing other factions to do what you want: Good Reputation. If you have A trustworthy reputation or higher everything is easier. Asking for things is just easier, especially vassals, you put them to their knees and if they only have one settlement and are separated from the world, vassalage is easy as creampie. Especially if you give one or two regions back to them.

Just keep them far from your other vassals, infighting ain`t good.

Good Reputation... GOT IT!! Towards the end of my lengthy rant I think I mentioned it having something to do with my reputation being high. On the note of vassals fighting though... mine seam to behave really well. Their capitols are all very far apart, but i've granted them territories in the holy lands to help me fend off the mongols and timurids, and none of them are fighting(yet) and no one has declared war on them since they became my vassals (going on 70+ turns now). They go on crusades and i can proxy them into battles and start wars that way but they seam to be diplomatically static.

Do vassals continue to make/break alliances after becoming vassalized? Mine are def and dumb to the world, except when I tell them to attack.

Also... what are good ways to bump your reputation? All that works for me is peacetime+lenghty alliances.

[Jiub]

Don`t sack or exterminate, don`t chase down enemies after the battle ends, always release prisoners. Don`t go beyond your borders if not at war or have military alliance [it`ll damage your relation thus slow down your good rep gain]. Don`t start wars, ect.

Anything that might be considered as bad, even if "justified" you should think twice. It`s true it slows down region gain, but it does wonders for your rep.

[wimlore]

Oh man, this is so true, reputation is the KEY to vassalage! With a Very Reliable reputation, I was able to break my 60 year war cycle and establish my 4th client kingdom: England!!! SO HAPPY!!!! 4 down and 8 to go, about 680 turns left. Thanks for the tips and info, my fantasy empire is back on track!

[sethyboy0]

So what exactly is it that vassals do?

I remember at one point during a campaign I was at war with some and actually got them to be my vassal.

I don't remember much, but I do recall that I found myself displeased with what I thought was a lack of reason to have a vassal.

[wimlore]

So what exactly is it that vassals do?

I remember at one point during a campaign I was at war with some and actually got them to be my vassal.

I don't remember much, but I do recall that I found myself displeased with what I thought was a lack of reason to have a vassal.

Honestly thats a good question... id like to find out what they do also in terms of money... does having them as your ally give you more rep per turn? exactly how much income do you get from them? ive yet to see a good vassal faq online...

Personally the only reason I like having a vassal is because late in the game its hard to set up marriages if everyone dead. Then Id have to stick with bride offers which happen too little and I get no royal ties trait. Its also nice because if you set it up right, you can surround a kingdom with vassalized territory, and use them as a buffer if you were to go to war with that kingdom. Another trick I like to do is give my vassals recently conquered territory because they instantly get a garrison placed there, rather than you having to build them or leave behind some of your conquering troops. This works out, because you have military access and I figure, why not let them produce priests and convert territories for me, while I dominate their homeland... I dont know... I like vassals, and its historical for a kingdom to have vassals.. I wish it were more like Crusader Kings in that regards. But yeah, other than that, I dont know what vassals are good for?

[k_Apollo]

I just give them all my money, as they will give it back the next turn .

[leseras]

Normally i just destroy everyone around me. So I'm not so sure about vassaling. In what way are vassals beneficial anyway?

[Noble Lancer]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=226869 the great informative thread by Rebel6666, info on vassal and reputation right on the top

[Swagga]

Being on the other side of a vassal agrrement can help. I loved being a vassal to France on time when I played Spain, and when my milatry had been all but depleted from warring with Moors and France. I had the protection of France, peace, and wealth. I was able to rebuild my army, much larger then anybody else could build theirs, then attacked France.

[Freodin]

How did you even manage to gain money while being a vassal?

I (as Milan) accepted vassalage to France, to end at least this continouus war. I wasn´t able to gather more that 6000fl... the King in Paris took all the rest.

[andrey27]

he was not a vassal of any1 he vassalized others. my main problem is they do not seek peace, they just get angry and attack. that's frustrating. is it because of my rep? i am currently working on it. but even that is kinda hard...

[Loki_999]

I could have offered England my entire realm minus my capitol for their vassalage, but they would never accept it.

This is an interesting aspect of TW diplomacy. Unlike some games where its kind of like everyone has their price, sometimes they will not accept regardless of what you offer.

Another thing I have noticed is that when trying diplomacy sometimes you can offer too much and get rejected for it.

They say something like they cannot accept such a huge sum or they cannot give enough in return (forget the exact wording). In other words, they like the offer, but the would feel they would owe you too much.

[leseras]

Who keeps necroing all these threads? Its annoying! Just start a new one!

[Jiub]

It isn`t that old, and instead of having the same conversation over and over again it`s easier to just read all about it then reply. Moreover, this forum section doesnt get all that much circulation so necroposting is prob most efficient way of resurfacing information so that it isn`t lost because these conversations rarely ever get really debated.