Humans - Are we all the same?

[SinerAthin]

Hello!

Recently I had a discussion with a friend of mine which awoke a question with me.

While talking about equality, he said that not every human 'race' is exactly equal, not politically speaking but purely biological, that there were minor intellectual differances as well as fitness and performance, that different types of humans had pros and cons, explaining that while individual humans may deviate greatly sometimes, their races usually had small traits.

He also used the people of Africa as an example, saying that it was because of their slow history that they were better sprinters than the normal white, but also that their brains hadn't developed as long as ours had, claiming that this could also be a reason why Africa was so far behind the rest of the world western world.

Is any of this true? Admittedly, I don't know much about human racial differences other than that some of us have different skin, so can you help out?

[Manco]

While talking about equality, he said that not every human 'race' is exactly equal,

Drop the word race, instead use population; Race as we commonly use it is more of a socio-political term than a biological one

not politically speaking but purely biological, that there were minor intellectual differances as well as fitness and performance, that different types of humans had pros and cons, explaining that while individual humans may deviate greatly sometimes, their races usually had small traits.

There are certainly differences between populations. The problem is, how do we separate the 'racial' traits, from cultural and social ones? Especially in less tangible traits, such as intelligence, this is hard and I don't know of a single test that accounts for these differences.

He also used the people of Africa as an example, saying that it was because of their slow history that they were better sprinters than the normal white

Bad example. Africa is genetically more diverse than the rest of the world combined. If we take say Europeans, Central Asians, Indians, South-East Asians, Amerindians and Aboriginals as 6 separate races, then that means we'll have more than 6 within black Africa. This is due to all Non-Africans descending from one relatively small group.
As for being better sprinters, tell an East-African he's supposed to be a better sprinter; he isn't. Tell someone from the Congo he's a better sprinter, he isn't.

but also that their brains hadn't developed as long as ours had, claiming that this could also be a reason why Africa was so far behind the rest of the world western world.

Not developing as long doesn't make sense. All human populations are just as 'old'.
And it completely ignores available resources, environmental factors, socio-political and cultural factors,...
Besides most people who say such things are usually ignorant about African history.

Is any of this true? Admittedly, I don't know much about human racial differences other than that some of us have different skin, so can you help out?

Well, skin is hardly a reliable indicator for population differences. It's theorized skin colour can drastically change in about 25 generations (depending on natural and sexual selection of course).

In short, population differences do exist, but on the grand scale they're all relatively minor.

[Gelgoog]

There is no such thing as different human races. We are probably the least diverse species of mammal there is. We are all descended from about 600 breeding individuals and hence are genetically very very similar to everyone else due to a bottleneck event.

BTW: Your friend is an idiot.

[Manco]

There is no such thing as different human races. We are probably the least diverse species of mammal there is. We are all descended from about 600 breeding individuals and hence are genetically very very similar to everyone else due to a bottleneck event.

BTW: Your friend is an idiot.

Cheetahs are even less diverse i think.
But indeed human's aren't very diverse, thought the Toba catastrophe theory claims a bit more than 600 breeding individuals.

[Gelgoog]

Cheetahs are even less diverse i think.
But indeed human's aren't very diverse, thought the Toba catastrophe theory claims a bit more than 600 breeding individuals.

They did a genetic testing to prove the bottleneck and found it was less then the few thousand they had first though and ended up being about 600. I will see if I can find the article. The toba theory has been around longer then the testing.

[DekuTrash]

Come to think of it, had anyone every heard someone in this scientific field use the word race to define populations?

Hmm.....don't know if I worded that right.

In the media I only every see sociologists, demographers and whatnot use it.

[Manco]

They did a genetic testing to prove the bottleneck and found it was less then the few thousand they had first though and ended up being about 600. I will see if I can find the article. The toba theory has been around longer then the testing.

Could very well be, it's been 4 years since I last did some thorough research on the subject.

[bushbush]

is your friend from 19th century?

[Poach]

As has been said, differences tend to be due to cultural, social or environmental differences as opposed to racial.

[Elfdude]

Some scientists in the 80's did an experiment with preschool (2-5) children from different socio cultural groups from all around the world and learned that with proper early stimulation every child would go on to become successful. It didn't matter if they were white, black, yellow or orange the biggest single factor was whether the children were stimulated. For this the scientists designed over a hundred games each designed specifically to take what a child could do at X age then challenge them slightly and rewarded each time the children got it right with praise and what not. They also created a theory why the poor and underprivileged seem to produce poor and underprivileged children for the next generation, poor people have less time to spend with their children to work their child's mind and are more concerned with keeping the child healthy rather than expanding their minds.

So to put it frankly, no we're not all the same but the difference between us is relatively tiny. The difference between men and women for example is dozens of times larger than the difference between black and white.

[Phier]

poor people have less time to spend with their children to work their child's mind and are more concerned with keeping the child healthy rather than expanding their minds.

Thats pretty much crap in the US as the poor have in general plenty of time to spend with the kids. My guess is its the same for other nations with a welfare system as well.

The issue is normally just poor parenting, not bleeding heart they don't have time.

Also while just about any human can learn to be 'successful' by some definition, it does not mean we are the same. No amount of early stimulation would have turned me into a Divinci, some of us are just born differently.

Personally I think you are getting the usual PC everyone is equal pap they still like to give out at school, which does not hold up well to scrutiny. I had the same type of stuff in school. That humans had no instincts, gender differences were cultural, low self esteem leads to violent behavior, and it was all crap. The last bastion of this crap is the concept that we are genetically the same and the differences don't mean anything. I'll remember that next time I try to slam dunk.

[Elfdude]

Thats pretty much crap in the US as the poor have in general plenty of time to spend with the kids. My guess is its the same for other nations with a welfare system as well.

The issue is normally just poor parenting, not bleeding heart they don't have time.

I didn't say I agreed with the conclusion I was just restating it.

Also while just about any human can learn to be 'successful' by some definition, it does not mean we are the same. No amount of early stimulation would have turned me into a Divinci, some of us are just born differently.

That's not necessarily true being successful wasn't the point of the experiment raising the iq was. Children from ghettos seem to have extremely low IQ's and it was an attempt to explain that phenomena. However I don't believe any race has a predisposition to being super geniuses I believe it's entirely a random roll of the dice in combination with just the right circumstances to develop your mind in whatever field.

As for being athletic I don't know if I buy into the idea that 'blacks' are better at everything 'mexicans' are better at soccer and white people have no skill.

Personally I think you are getting the usual PC everyone is equal pap they still like to give out at school, which does not hold up well to scrutiny. I had the same type of stuff in school. That humans had no instincts, gender differences were cultural, low self esteem leads to violent behavior, and it was all crap. The last bastion of this crap is the concept that we are genetically the same and the differences don't mean anything. I'll remember that next time I try to slam dunk.

I feel like some are targeting me as a liberal democrat. Strange.

[Phier]

I feel like some are targeting me as a liberal democrat. Strange.

Hardly, I'm targeting the sociologists as bad scientists

[John I Tzimisces]

Thats pretty much crap in the US as the poor have in general plenty of time to spend with the kids. My guess is its the same for other nations with a welfare system as well.

The issue is normally just poor parenting, not bleeding heart they don't have time.

Also while just about any human can learn to be 'successful' by some definition, it does not mean we are the same. No amount of early stimulation would have turned me into a Divinci, some of us are just born differently.

Personally I think you are getting the usual PC everyone is equal pap they still like to give out at school, which does not hold up well to scrutiny. I had the same type of stuff in school. That humans had no instincts, gender differences were cultural, low self esteem leads to violent behavior, and it was all crap. The last bastion of this crap is the concept that we are genetically the same and the differences don't mean anything. I'll remember that next time I try to slam dunk.

The genetic variation between populations renders itself largely in your example, not the focus of this thread (IE: are white people inherently smarter than black people, or vice versa, or asians, or whatever, and that's why europeans conquered the world while everyone else was conquered.). And that difference is a logical environmental adaptation, much like skin color. Longer forelimbs means a greater surface area to body mass ratio (IE, better at radiating heat). Shorter forelimbs (as can be seen in inuit or lapp/saami/whatever populations) means a lower ratio (meaning better at retaining heat). And yeah, longer limbs also does sort of kind of make a body better for running, although we as a species pretty much have had that since homo erectus (so, err, before we were a species), since bipedalism is good for running long distances, while quadrupeds are better at sprinting...so it's a good adaptation for our ancestral hunter gatherers.

There isn't considerable variation in brain size, nor really a correlation between brain size and intelligence (though I think people with smaller craniums are more likely to suffer from mental illness? No idea, can't remember, don't kill me if I'm wrong). I mean, are cetaceans more intelligent than us? Unless they're secretly Liir and are just pulling the bag over our heads with their mystical psychic powers I don't really think so.

Frankly I don't give a damn about sociology ( ). This is (or should be) an entirely biological discussion. Though of course, you are correct in regards to stuff like "we have no instincts". We aren't born a clean slate (nor are we born with everything we know or our future potential or all that jazz).

Maybe I'm just being cranky or something.

[Phier]

Unless they're secretly Liir and are just pulling the bag over our heads with their mystical psychic powers I don't really think so.

Actually of all animals, humans top of the brainsize to body mass ratio. Its not just the size of the brain, its the size of the brain comparable to the body. Dolphins do quite well in this compared to a lot of mammals, but they are still much lower than humans.

[DekuTrash]

poor people have less time to spend with their children to work their child's mind and are more concerned with keeping the child healthy rather than expanding their minds.

Same could be said of families with more wealth. Though I'm iffy about the last part.

[Elfdude]

Same could be said of families with more wealth. Though I'm iffy about the last part.

Like I said to phier I was restating the scientists conclusion. You have to realize the scientists had to be careful about being outright critical of the parenting techniques people use because people get really pissed off when empirical evidence shows the technique they've been relying on does not help the child but rather hinders them.

You've also got to understand a huge amount of underprivileged women think that having a baby is glamorous or that that is their final goal in life regardless of that fact that many don't have the ability to give their children what they need.

Which is to say the problem is most likely selfish parents who can't parent living in communities with their own miniculture. Every child after the experiment was completed (around age 5) kept their inquisitive nature and their increased mental facilities all the way through college. Every one (iirc) moved out of the ghettoes they were born into and successfully ended the cycle.

[♖TMB Total War♖]

no no no! this is all wrong!
you can find your answer in the book Guns, Germs and Steel

[Manco]

Personally I think you are getting the usual PC everyone is equal pap they still like to give out at school, which does not hold up well to scrutiny. I had the same type of stuff in school. That humans had no instincts, gender differences were cultural, low self esteem leads to violent behavior, and it was all crap. The last bastion of this crap is the concept that we are genetically the same and the differences don't mean anything. I'll remember that next time I try to slam dunk.

Sociology must be very different in the US then, I've never had a single prof tell me differences didn't exist. Only that it's all too easy to blame differences on a single factor, instead of a complex web of biological, social, environmental, cultural and so,... factors.

[Phier]

Sociology must be very different in the US then, I've never had a single prof tell me differences didn't exist. Only that it's all too easy to blame differences on a single factor, instead of a complex web of biological, social, environmental, cultural and so,... factors.

I'm older than you, this was about the time you were born and before. They have changed their tune to an extent, but it still not there yet. Also the strongest 'there is no such things as race' malarkey seems to be coming from Europe, at least thats where I run into it more.