if turn = 2 wk, how many years to build a SOL

**dmcheatw** · February 16, 2010, 12:22 PM

if a turn is 2 weeks, it should take 60-150 turns to build a ship of the line right? that is would be good because in real life a ship of the line wasn't all that common and took a lot of resources and time to build.

**busboy999** · February 16, 2010, 12:28 PM

Very true, however on the assumption that it doesn't take that long I can see the short construction time as the final cost of coin and time for "fitting out" a ship rather than starting it from scratch.

For that matter, recruiting a new "regiment" shouldn't be a two to four week process either, but I'll squint and bear it if that's how it works.

**Solar** · February 16, 2010, 01:40 PM

It shouldn't take five years or so for an army to march across europe, but we've been bearing it since M:TW. Realism regarding time is something CA has always sacrificed in lieu of gameplay, and army recruiting times are something that can probably be easily altered for a realism mod.

**dmcheatw** · February 16, 2010, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Solar

It shouldn't take five years or so for an army to march across europe, but we've been bearing it since M:TW. Realism regarding time is something CA has always sacrificed in lieu of gameplay, and army recruiting times are something that can probably be easily altered for a realism mod.

a very valid point that i hadn't considered before. I guess it will only take a few turns to build a ship of the line as usual.

**Chyeaaaa111** · February 16, 2010, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Solar

It shouldn't take five years or so for an army to march across europe, but we've been bearing it since M:TW. Realism regarding time is something CA has always sacrificed in lieu of gameplay, and army recruiting times are something that can probably be easily altered for a realism mod.

Yes, in a turn based game it would be rather unfair if an army in Russia could march across Europe and besiege a French city the same turn in Empire, even though it would've been realistic

**Lowes** · February 16, 2010, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Solar

It shouldn't take five years or so for an army to march across europe, but we've been bearing it since M:TW. Realism regarding time is something CA has always sacrificed in lieu of gameplay, and army recruiting times are something that can probably be easily altered for a realism mod.

Yes, yes, it would seem that we can't have our bally cake and eat it too! For the timelines the Total War games are built around seem a jolly good show in one regard, and an outright debacle in an other. The whole idea of building a regiment in 1 turn, that would be 6 months, or a ship of the line in 2-3 turns, seems like a reasonable venture to me. The nitpicky historians among you may cry "La de da Lowes! So-and-so truly DID take such-and-such time to construct", I humbly ask you to stay your bally tongues!

As the gentlemen Solar has said, much has been sacrificed in terms of game play, but not all aspects of it are an utter ruin. Recruiting times are for the most part reasonable along the "vanilla" timelines, but I am loathe to say that marching pace, is decidedly not.

**♔ brucedickenson♔** · February 16, 2010, 02:47 PM

I'm guessing the much longer build times will render starting units more precious! No more disbanding pikemen!!

**alreadyded** · February 16, 2010, 09:20 PM

What do you guys think would be the most accurate 'turns per year' to have accurate movement speeds on the map? A large army with infantry would probably only march 10 to 15 miles a day on good terrain? 20 with a good road?

As for the ship building speeds, they vary depending on the resources invested. I know of many large ships from WII and some from hundreds of years prior that have been built, outfitted, and put out sea in a matter of months. With enough resources and man power working 24/7 (along with well equipped dry docks) you can build an entire fleet of "decent" ships in a year. It just costs a lot lot more. Maybe three to four times as much. Varying costs by build speed would be a good and realistic aspect to add into the game. Not too difficult either, you just have to clone the units and change the cost and build times for ships. Training a professional regiment should take 2-3 months, regardless of the cost, otherwise they are not professional and their stats should state as much.

**grandpa** · February 17, 2010, 02:24 AM

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by alreadyded

What do you guys think would be the most accurate 'turns per year' to have accurate movement speeds on the map? A large army with infantry would probably only march 10 to 15 miles a day on good terrain? 20 with a good road?

Well sir, I have had the unfortunate experince of marching 25 miles in just a few hours..me and the rest of the brigade,hooyah!

**dutch81** · February 17, 2010, 02:38 AM

[QUOTE=grandpa;6785404]

Well sir, I have had the unfortunate experince of marching 25 miles in just a few hours..me and the rest of the brigade,hooyah!

Marching a single brigade is a big difference from marching an army ... I think the numbers the previous post stated are probably not that bad of an estimate. Also, how far an army could march depended on the road network which certainly varied from region to region ... it was one of the strengths of the French army in Napoleonic times to march using a variety of roads and then gather in time together for the decisive action.

Now there were certainly remarkable feats of infantry marching great distances ... I remember reading of German Infantry in WWII marching close to 50 miles a day.

**monsterfurby** · February 17, 2010, 06:45 AM

Also, remember that the movement speed of armies on the map represents campaign movement, i.e. including smaller engagements, securing supply lines, possibly having to take important positions along the way. At least that's what I tell my roleplay-obsessed self...

**fumle** · February 17, 2010, 01:01 PM

I would like to be able to train my men in just one day... they only need to be able to point a gun, and (maybe) hit something...hehe...even with a crazy meele-AI it would mean nothing to me, as soon as some of my men enters meele they are already regarded as dead and the other men would fire straight into the mass

my quantitative army will flood Europe in no time!
hmm...its going to be interesting to see how long it would take to build a unit in NTW (btw. does this tread not belong in the wrong forum?)

**Dr. Strangelove** · February 17, 2010, 02:23 PM

Ships of the line weren't that rare. Britain had over 70 of them at one time during the Fench Revolutionary / Napoleonic wars. I believe that at their peak the French had 30 to 40 SOLs. Remember that each of these nations had several ship yards capable of building these ships. Their construction wasn't really the massive industrial undertaking that building a 20th century battleship or fleet aircraft carrier was.
It wasn't impossible to assemble an army in a few weeks time, I believe the French did it on more than one occassion in the 1790s. It's just that their training wasn't very good.

**dmcheatw** · February 17, 2010, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Ships of the line weren't that rare. Britain had over 70 of them at one time during the Fench Revolutionary / Napoleonic wars. I believe that at their peak the French had 30 to 40 SOLs. Remember that each of these nations had several ship yards capable of building these ships. Their construction wasn't really the massive industrial undertaking that building a 20th century battleship or fleet aircraft carrier was.
It wasn't impossible to assemble an army in a few weeks time, I believe the French did it on more than one occassion in the 1790s. It's just that their training wasn't very good.

i don't doubt your figures, but did the other european powers have dozens of SOL's as well? i rather doubt it. the two countries you named were an island nation and a super power respectively... seems like those countries wouldn't be representative of the other european nations.

**♔KillZoneGB♔** · February 17, 2010, 04:20 PM

i thought stock empire 1turn = 6 months

HMS Victory takes 4 turns = 2years

The American Specail forces one takes 0 turns

So which Nation Dominates the Severn Sea`s.........

Answers on a post card

**alreadyded** · February 17, 2010, 07:38 PM

You can always increase the movement speeds and intercept/reinforcement zones. It is a easy fix and that would make it more realistic and not ruin the game play. You or the computer can always decline to intercept so there are no forced battles. I have done it myself with a few mods (IS and Darth) in the past and it worked out great. I would like to find the ideal turns per year for the increased movement speed to make the campaign map realistic, but its pretty tuff.

**Steeltrap** · February 17, 2010, 10:51 PM

I've always thought the better solution is to have 'real-time' movement per the Hearts of Iron series.

That brings the concepts of operational/strategic manoeuvres into play, which makes it far more credible as a strategy title. That's especially so if you add a more significant fog of war.

For example, you start moving a force towards an enemy city. Your ability to 'see' through FoW is affected by having light cavalry in your army, plus a rake. As you proceed, you become aware of an enemy force moving as well. Where's it going? How big is it? Is it a threat? Should you change your movement to head to intercept it, press on, or retreat?

THAT would make for a far more plausible strategy game, and PCs are perfectly able to do it.

Turn based 'strategy' like Total War is old, and starting to show its age. The whole "I'll capture his city before his army gets anywhere and destroy him and his armies" that applies to minor nations is silly and shows the flaws in the current arrangements. Fog of War is largely meaningless for much of Europe. The AI ignores it at sea. Etc etc....

Cheers