Criticisms of NTW are entitled and right, but done right?

Good morning,

Of course there are still topics existing which deal with the criticism against Napoleon. But this topics are handling mostly only parts of the game. I want to show from a neutral position a fundamental point / way, because I think that there is something going wrong in the way the community do.
There are already much criticism against the game of Napoleon: Total War. Actually, we can say that it is very critical here, since it was announced last year was.
Let us start…

Principle

Creative Assembly statement: Napoleon is a “stand-alone game"
Community response: Nonsense! It is an Addon for ETW
Truth:
It is a stand-alone game, but has only the content as an Addon
The generally accepted definition of Addon is that it is a complement to a main game, but does not work without the main game. NTW works without ETW, so I would call NTW at least as a "stand alone Addon".

So if the game NTW is for the clear majority of the community "only" an Addon, then only a comparison between NTW and another TW Addon (Kingdoms, Barbarian Invasion) is valid.
It is more than unfair to say, NTW = Addon, but then making comparisons with the critics to NTW against ETW or NTW to M2TW!

Price

NTW is, therefore, for me just an Addon. Kingdoms is an Addon released in 2007, which in Germany had the price of cost 29,99 Euro. NTW will cost almost as much as a main game in the series, depending on whether the normal version or the "Imperial Edition".
Even taking into account the general price increases since 2007 and perhaps a bonus for the stand-alone in terms of price, NTW is somehow too expensive for many people (me included).

Content

The main points of criticism, in addition to bugs and so on, are the contents in the game. As I said above, only a comparison between NTW and an Addon like Kingdoms is allowed and a fair comparison / way to criticise. Lets make now this fair comparison NTW against Kingdoms with the knowledge about NTW taht we have:

a) variety of units
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner?

b) Number of Campaigns
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner?

c) the size and scale of the maps
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner?

d) the number of playable factions
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner?

e) Existing Features
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... Winner?

f) Modding
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... Winner?

g) Price
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... Winner?

I think these 7 points should be enough, maybe there are more. I leave the answers open, because you all shall give a rating for yourself!

Bugs

Napoleon had this bug`s at the event in Munich:

- melee bug
- Too flat firing artillery (cannons, howitzers not!)
- AI behaviours
- Lack of units in the selection at MP and SP battles (*)
- More points? We will see I think.

(*)
Definitely absent at the event in Munich were the HMS Victory and the Santissima Trinidad in the selection of units in battles for SP (custom battles) and MP! In the campaign, and in the historic Battle of Trafalgar they are both included and not something like DLC / PDLC!

Conclusion:
I do not want to fight against the criticisms of NTW, I also do not want make the game better as it is. I want to draw this issue of criticism only in the, in my opinion right direction. A comparison with NTW against ETW or M2TW is totally wrong, because NTW is an Addon in the opinion of most people. So you can compare only with Addon against Addon!
NTW has bugs in the game that are not necessary and which must be corrected immediately. A judging how good the content is, I let it open and everyone should do a judging for himself.
The point of DLC / PDLC is as always an issue and ultimately here play only the personal opinions a matter! Some are very angry about the DLC, other do accept or like them. What is certain is that there will by guarantee some DLC / PDLC (further units, 5. campaign? We will see) for the game NTW.

Greeting’s
Mandelus

Why have you included "flat trajectory" as a bug? Cannons fired at maximum 5° on a napoleonic battlefield, they were deployed in front of infantry or intermixed in the space left by battalions. They needed flat terrain to deploy and most important they needed a clear LOS to target, so pretending to put them behind the shelter of infantry line to fire above the troops head is just a nonsense.

Originally Posted by LEGIO_Desaix

Why have you included "flat trajectory" as a bug? Cannons fired at maximum 5° on a napoleonic battlefield, they were deployed in front of infantry or intermixed in the space left by battalions. They needed flat terrain to deploy and most important they needed a clear LOS to target, so pretending to put them behind the shelter of infantry line to fire above the troops head is just a nonsense.

Well, but can they shoot over a rabbit hill? No, not in the game. The tracectory in NTW is flat like a line!
Are the cannons in ETW others than in NTW, beside calibres in some cases? No! So why can they shot in ETW over a little hill and why not in NTW.

Sorry, this is clear a bug and a clear deterioration in nTW in comparsion to ETW!

Lucullus mate,

a) variety of units
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner: Kingdoms

How many units in NTW and how many in Kingdoms?

b) Number of Campaigns
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner: Kingdoms

How many campaigns in NTW and how many in Kingdoms? In both 4 if I'm not wrong!

e) Existing Features
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... Winner: Kingdoms ex MP campaign 1vs1 but incl hotseat campaign for many players

Important points, no doubt. But take a look on all the further features at both, so far as known. No missunderstanding, your opinion which I totally respect and in parts sign! That, fe.e the hoteat isn't included is bad in NTW.

Originally Posted by Mandelus

How many campaigns in NTW and how many in Kingdoms? In both 4 if I'm not wrong!

Kingdoms: Brittanias, Americas, Teutonic, Crusades...

NTW: Egypt, Italy, Grand Campaign...

Kingdoms wins unless you count a tuturoail as a campaign...

Originally Posted by DoomBunny666

Kingdoms: Brittanias, Americas, Teutonic, Crusades...

NTW: Egypt, Italy, Grand Campaign...

Kingdoms wins unless you count a tuturoail as a campaign...

Dont forget shortly after release huge mod which made from all 4 campaigns + vanilla ME2 1 AWESOME huge super big campaign which was dream of all TW players. Will NTW allow this? Ehm.........

Originally Posted by DoomBunny666

Kingdoms: Brittanias, Americas, Teutonic, Crusades...

NTW: Egypt, Italy, Grand Campaign...

Kingdoms wins unless you count a tuturoail as a campaign...

Wrong!

Kingdoms: Brittanias, Americas, Teutonic, Crusades
NTW: Italy, Egypt, Europe, Coaltion Wars

Makes a 4 vs 4

Dont forget shortly after release huge mod which made from all 4 campaigns + vanilla ME2 1 AWESOME huge super big campaign which was dream of all TW players. Will NTW allow this? Ehm.........

Totally right, because lacking Modding support in ETW and NTW

Originally Posted by Mandelus

How many units in NTW and how many in Kingdoms?

Well count number of units of playable factions in Kigdoms and number of units of playable factions in NTW - result is Kigdoms wins with like 10 times more units.

Originally Posted by Mandelus

Well, but can they shoot over a rabbit hill? No, not in the game. The tracectory in NTW is flat like a line!
Are the cannons in ETW others than in NTW, beside calibres in some cases? No! So why can they shot in ETW over a little hill and why not in NTW.

Sorry, this is clear a bug and a clear deterioration in nTW in comparsion to ETW!

I disagree, every step in the right direction of realism should not must see as a bug.
Cannons didn't fire over hills, whatever slight or severe, because they need a clear LOS to target. The bug was present in Empire, I'm glad they fix it. Please consider that even howitzers fired with a clear LOS, while in the game it's totally unrealistic as they can fire over units and hills or woods. To be correct howitzers seldom formed specific batteries but were present in a 1:6 proportion in the french army. Some pure howitzers batteries were used by prussia before 1806 and russia. A big clap to CA if they got it right this time.

Originally Posted by LEGIO_Desaix

I disagree, every step in the right direction of realism should not must see as a bug.
Cannons didn't fire over hills, whatever slight or severe, because they need a clear LOS to target. The bug was present in Empire, I'm glad they fix it. Please consider that even howitzers fired with a clear LOS, while in the game it's totally unrealistic as they can fire over units and hills or woods. To be correct howitzers seldom formed specific batteries but were present in a 1:6 proportion in the french army. Some pure howitzers batteries were used by prussia before 1806 and russia. A big clap to CA if they got it right this time.

Realism and TW games - that always means trouble. Here you can expect, when it is not changed by CA, that the majority of players in the TWC and TWZ will therefore begin to complain and it will cause anger. For that I must not to be a soothsayer ...

I understand you 100%, but I must still say it is wrong in the game. The trajectory of NTW is flat like a laser beam and drawn with a ruler. You and all who know dealing with artillery and guns know 1 thing: Never a trajectory of the weapons is so flat, it is always curved.
As for the directional angle, I must correct you unfortunately. The guns could be directed at 15 degrees up! But in NTW there are only 0 - 1 degree, and that's the problem.

Originally Posted by Mandelus

Realism and TW games - that always means trouble. Here you can expect, when it is not changed by CA, that the majority of players in the TWC and TWZ will therefore begin to complain and it will cause anger. For that I must not to be a soothsayer ...

I understand you 100%, but I must still say it is wrong in the game. The trajectory of NTW is flat like a laser beam and drawn with a ruler. You and all who know dealing with artillery and guns know 1 thing: Never a trajectory of the weapons is so flat, it is always curved.
As for the directional angle, I must correct you unfortunately. The guns could be directed at 15 degrees up! But in NTW there are only 0 - 1 degree, and that's the problem.

Not sure this is the right topic to discuss about artillery, but you must consider that cannon balls had a great effect ricocheting on the ground. With 15° the trajectory would have canceled this bouncing effect because the ball would have been buried into the terrain. Even though theoretically that 15° could be achieved, pratically a 5° degrees angle was the maximum used by napoleonic crew. Firing with an high curve as what you suggests make imperative to hit perfectly the target as you could not count on the ricochet effect.

Howitzers of course is another matter. We just have those overpowered howitzers able to fire behind friendly troops that I regard the low cannon angle as a wise choice by CA to not letting players abuse of the guns power.

Originally Posted by Mandelus

Well, but can they shoot over a rabbit hill? No, not in the game. The tracectory in NTW is flat like a line!
Are the cannons in ETW others than in NTW, beside calibres in some cases? No! So why can they shot in ETW over a little hill and why not in NTW.

Sorry, this is clear a bug and a clear deterioration in nTW in comparsion to ETW!

Lucullus mate,

How many units in NTW and how many in Kingdoms?


How many campaigns in NTW and how many in Kingdoms? In both 4 if I'm not wrong!


Important points, no doubt. But take a look on all the further features at both, so far as known. No missunderstanding, your opinion which I totally respect and in parts sign! That, fe.e the hoteat isn't included is bad in NTW.

just to clarify, in ETW something about cannons was off, because the reverse slope defense wasn't as effective as it should have been. i've seen cannon shrapnal shot slowly kill 1-3 troops a salvo, which means over an unlimited time game you'd have to attack. but when you zoomed in, the cannon had no line of sight to the infantry it was killing! you're absolutely right it shouldn't be laserbeam flat, but it shouldn't arc over slopes either.

a) variety of units
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner: Kingdoms

b) Number of Campaigns
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner: Kingdoms

c) the size and scale of the maps
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner: to be seen after release

d) the number of playable factions
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... ... Winner: Kingdoms by far

e) Existing Features
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... Winner: Kingdoms ex MP campaign 1vs1 but incl hotseat campaign for many players

f) Modding
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... Kingdoms by far

g) Price
Napoleon against Kingdoms ... ... ... ... Kingdoms


Kingdoms (quality/quantity) > Medieval 2 Vanilla
Kingdoms (price) < Medieval 2 Vanilla

NTW (quality maybe slightly better but not sure yet/ quantitaty worse) = ETW
NTW (price) = ETW

Kingdoms (quantity) > NTW
Kingdoms (price) < NTW

Kingdoms (quality) ~ NTW (to be seen after release)


Simply spoken: With Kingdoms you got more game for less cash. It obvious that CA wants to make max profit with min effort. Nothing wrong with that from a business point of view but it also means that the good old TW days are over.

I have never really played Kingdoms much, I only bought it so I could play the mods for it and for that reason alone I am going to say that Kingdoms was far better than what NTW seems to be.

Kigdoms offered more for less price. Simply is better. Now we will pay more, get less and be lucky if CA let us pay even more for DLC........forget modding, i doubt there will be any change from ETW.

How many units in NTW and how many in Kingdoms?

kingdoms has about 30 playabale factions with a unit roster of 20-40 units each. thats.... how much more than the 350 of ntw? 2x? 3x? too lazy to count it exactly but you get the clue.

How many campaigns in NTW and how many in Kingdoms? In both 4 if I'm not wrong!

Kingdoms 4, NTW 3 (italy, egypt, europe). or are you counting europe campaign double because you play as french or coalition? according to that kingdoms would have 30 campaigns.

3 campaigns where you can play only as a France is stupid (nothing against France, but TW games were always matter of choice and freedom). Then 4. where you can play for rest 4 nations is nice, but its still not HUGE Grand Campaign which everyone wants.

Since ETW didnt offered way to mod campaign map - simply make it much much larger and add much more cities i am afraid we will get same in NTW. NTW contains only Europe and if people wont be able to mod it, i am afraid it will get booring really fast.

Originally Posted by Lucullus

kingdoms has about 30 playabale factions with a unit roster of 20-40 units each. thats.... how much more than the 350 of ntw? 2x? 3x? too lazy to count it exactly but you get the clue.



Kingdoms 4, NTW 3 (italy, egypt, europe). or are you counting europe campaign double because you play as french or coalition? according to that kingdoms would have 30 campaigns.

1.) Italy
Playable in SP only France, in MP all wich are involved but minimum France and Austria
2.) Egypt
Playable in SP only France, in MP all involves, but minimum France and Ottomans
3.) Europe
Playable in SP only France (Europe map), in MP France, Prussia, Great Britain, Austria and Russia
4.) Coalition wars
Playable in SP Prussia, Great Britain, Austria and Russia (same map as 3. - Europe, other owners of provinces). MP not aviable!

So, there are 4 campaigns, but clear to low playable factions in NTW campaigns, no doubt!

Originally Posted by Mandelus

1.) Italy
Playable in SP only France, in MP all wich are involved but minimum France and Austria
2.) Egypt
Playable in SP only France, in MP all involves, but minimum France and Ottomans
3.) Europe
Playable in SP only France (Europe map), in MP France, Prussia, Great Britain, Austria and Russia
4.) Coalition wars
Playable in SP Prussia, Great Britain, Austria and Russia (same map as 3. - Europe, other owners of provinces). MP not aviable!

So, there are 4 campaigns, but clear to low playable factions in NTW campaigns, no doubt!

Horrible and tottaly lame offer for such a price as NTW has.

Let me say it this way:

I understand the reasons why there are so low factions playable and there are 2 reasons:

- Most factions were satelites of France and even Spain was lesser than a protectorate. Sure, a rebellion against France and the fighting together with Wellington etc, but how will you make this in a TW title? I have personally no idea, but this doesn't mean there is no way.

- technically because 2 weeks = 1 turn in the game. Remeber how long a turn change in ETW runs with 1 turn = a half years (and because other reasons).

Because I'm understanding this, it will not mean I agree with the decisions made by CA. There are ways to make it better with more factions and at minimum with all factions aviable in MP single battles!
Also I don't agree with the way CA will hinder problems in ETW for NTW. To make it on a lower scale with the reason that then the problem is away is only crap, sorry!

3 and 4 are exactly the same, you just play with another faction but still on the same map with maybe some changed or added scripting/events. if you count them seperate you have to call each previous title a seperate campaign when you started with another faction on the same map. splitting the name to european and coalition doesnt make it 2 campaigns.

in kingdoms you have 6-9 playable factions in EACH campaign. and the 4 campaigns are completely unique. great replayability.