Prussia and it's former glory

I'm extremely interested in Prussia and it's military during this time period and even leading up until after World War 1. I'm curious if anybody knows what the state of Prussia was from the death of Frederick the Great, through the Napoleonic Era. I know that the Prussians went through reforms after being defeated by Napoleon at Jena, and I know that the Prussians weren't used to the French's mobility. Did Frederick III run the nation into the ground and squander away the gains of Frederick II? ...Any info would be awesome

Thanks Meine Kollegen Geschichte geeks,
(My Fellow History)
Rizz

I expect you've seen this site. I found it interesting for Prussia in Napoleonic times
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Pr...fantryuniforms

Prussia didn't change, her head of state did. To use an analogy ascribed to my native country (China), Prussia was also like a first rate man of war who lost its captain. The Prussian soldiers themselves were still very good, highly-drilled, well-disciplined, and trained to follow their rulers' orders to the letter. The problem is, Fred Will III couldn't be a more different leader than Frederick the Great. Whereas Frederick was warlike, FW was peaceful. Frederick was sharp and decisive, FW famously indecisive. A rather telling assessment from the battle of Auerstedt, by Paul Davis:

Retreating back into the protection of the village, the French began shooting at the exposed Prussians. The discipline imposed on the Prussians since the days of Frederick I did not fail; indeed, it was the major cause of the Prussian defeat that day. Under intense musket and artillery fire, the Prussian troops stood their ground for 2 hours and died in huge numbers.

Books could be written on the Prussian reform that followed but one of their most important developments was the General Staff. A steady supply of officers, selected on the basis of merit rather than birth, would be available to command armies and advise superiors, including the king.

Originally Posted by Stellerex

Books could be written on the Prussian reform that followed but one of their most important developments was the General Staff. A steady supply of officers, selected on the basis of merit rather than birth, would be available to command armies and advise superiors, including the king.

Officer quality wasn't the direct cause of Prussian failings in that engagement, it was the composition of the Prussian Army vs. the changes made in France's Army. Jena-Auerstadt is the seminal "line vs. skirmisher" engagement, which resulted in Prussia's incorporation of a much higher percentage of skirmishers into its makeup after the reforms.

What we learn from France vs. Prussia is that skirmishers provide more effective fire than troops in line, and that over time a skirmisher cloud will defeat a line. (Which becomes immediately obvious if you're inclined to sit down and push numbers around vis a vis ammo supply and probability of each round to hit its target with formed vs. dispersed troops.)

Prussia during Napoleon's reign of France was not Frederick the Great's Prussia by a long shot. Her military was going through many changes, drill was not as tough and worse yet, the bulk of her military recruits came from other lands. There were few, if any, true Prussian regiments.

As Napoleon said at Frederick's tomb, "If he were alive today, I would not be here."

Originally Posted by Stellerex

The problem is, Fred Will III couldn't be a more different leader than Frederick the Great. Whereas Frederick was warlike, FW was peaceful. Frederick was sharp and decisive, FW famously indecisive.

Well first off Frederick the Great was not "war-like". He was a military genius who just like men in uniforms. He actually liked peaceful solutions more than military ones. Frederick III was actually pretty ambitious as to defeating France. His failings were his alone, as he often disregarded the council of his Generals.

Ill make a quick summary for you.
Prussia acquired big strips of land in the war of Austrian succesion (Silesia from Austria). Frederick II prevailed in the seven years war versus Austria and France.
Frederick III was a weak king and much of the millitary prowess of the Prussians were broken in subsequently the battle of Jena/Auerstedt and Friedland.
In the congress of Vienna Prussia gained a lot of land in the Rhine Delta and parts of Poland and Saxony. Austria was not willing to give up her leading role in the Southern Germanies. A war was fought between Austria and German each with her subsequent allies. In this war Germany was unified with Prussia as leader. Prussia also beat the French Armies of Napoleon III and annexed Alsace Lorraine.
Bismarck was the grand tactician responsible for Prussia/Germany's rising power.
The Germans gained so much power that France and Russia felt threatened. And with the growing discontent of Austria-Hungary and Russia about Balkan issues the relations between the allies: Russia and France and the Triple Alliance (Italy, Austria-Hungary and Germany) The British were drawn into the war because of their promise of Belgian Indepence (Schelde river bank). Also the German Empire wanted to have a fair slice of the colonial cake. Something that France and Britian were thoroughly against.

The German Empire lost the war versus Britain, France, Russia, Italy and the USA *last part of the war. Versailles was as humiliating as it was unfair. As the allies were not any better than the Germans as war was inevitable.

Prussia was officially disbanded by Hitler and the Nazi party. As they did not want to have the interference of the Prussian government.

The problem with Versailles was that it humiliated Germany/Prussia but did not do enough to limit its potential for future war.The lack of opposition by Britain and France to the remilitarisation of the Rhineland in 1936 and invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938 led Hitler to further aggression finally resulting in war. Fortunately the situation after 1945 made sure Germany could no longer pose a threat to her neighbours.In that sense perhaps millions of lives could have been saved if Versailles had been even harsher.

I was wondering how long it would take for the discussion to devolve from one about Prussia in 1800 to Germany in 1930.

It always happens.

Take any internet conversation about a historic German state, most notably Prussia, and it will over the course of time change its nature such that the conversation ultimately becomes about Nazi Germany.

It's an interesting phenomenon, really.

This particular instance clocks in at 6 posts.

Originally Posted by The Vicar

I was wondering how long it would take for the discussion to devolve from one about Prussia in 1800 to Germany in 1930.

It always happens.

Take any internet conversation about a historic German state, most notably Prussia, and it will over the course of time change its nature such that the conversation ultimately becomes about Nazi Germany.

It's an interesting phenomenon, really.

This particular instance clocks in at 6 posts.

Which is funny because Hitler did NOT get along famously with the army officer class, which was formed on the Prussian mold. These feelings were reciprocated from the officers for their "Austrian corporal".

Originally Posted by The Vicar

I was wondering how long it would take for the discussion to devolve from one about Prussia in 1800 to Germany in 1930.

It always happens.

Take any internet conversation about a historic German state, most notably Prussia, and it will over the course of time change its nature such that the conversation ultimately becomes about Nazi Germany.

It's an interesting phenomenon, really.

This particular instance clocks in at 6 posts.

Which is a shame, because pre Nazi Germany is pretty spiffy. I like the pickle-hatted WW1 Germans the most. Musheen gun Pistol pew pew.

Might I recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Kingdom-D...7160666&sr=8-1

I appreciate the posts, but this thread was on Imperial Prussia...Not Imperial Germany(WW1), or Nazi Germany. I can debate about WW1 and WW2 anytime, but keep it to Prussia. Thank you for the book, and I'll check it out.

Lot of old maps of Prussia

http://www.raether-clan.de/

Many other sites if you read German.