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  1. #1

    Default Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Here is some background information from a website I found: http://www.angelfire.com/nm/hun/


    Transylvania was Hungarian for a Thousand years
    • As part of the Hungarian Kingdom
    • As an Independent Hungarian Principality
    • As part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire
    Transylvania was part and parcel of the Hungarian Kingdom, or an independent Hungarian Principality for over a thousand years.

    As an integral part of the Hungarian Kingdom, Transylvania and Kolozsvár was drawn into the Western Christian Culture Circle at the beginning of the eleventh century. The architecture of old Transylvanian cities, such as Nagyvárad , Kolozsvár , Marosvásárhely, Brassó or Dés bear witness to this fact. Besides a few scattered ruins of Roman fortifications, destroyed by the retreating Roman legions in 271 A.D., no sign of any kind would indicate a trace of an older established culture preceding the arrival of the Hungarians. Not even the legends, folk tales, ballads or folk songs of any one of the cohabiting ethnic groups suggest anything of this kind, except the oldest Hungarian (Székely) legends which date back to the time of Attila and the empire of the Huns.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    If we examine the folk art, which is the most tell-tale expression of early influences, we find that the embroideries and architecture of the Transylvanian Germans relates to the embroideries and architecture of those districts of Germany where these settlers came from in the 12th and 13th centuries. In the same way, the folk art of the Transylvanian Romanians is identical with those of Moldavia and Wallachia, and they clearly show the Slavic influences, the Bulgarian, Greek, and important Albanian motifs, picked up by the migrating Vlach herdsmen on their way from the Albanian border to their present location. On the other hand, the famous art creations of the Transylvanian Hungarians, like those of Kalotaszeg, Csík, Haromszék, Udvarhely carry a basic similarity with those of other parts of Hungary, and clearly relate back to ancient Turanian (Scythian) motifs of Sumeria and Babilon.

    Due to the close relations of the medieval Hungarian Kingdom with the West, talented Transylvanians found their ways to the early Universities of Europe as early as the 12th and 13th centuries. The very first student whose name became officially registered at the University of Oxford in 1193, was Miklós of Hungary, son of Kende, nobleman of Transylvania. During the 15th century there were three famous Hungarian doctors on the faculty of the University of Bologna, and one of them, Péter Pál Apati of Torda, later founded the "Free Collegium of the Noble Sciences", established in his hometown, Torda, then moved to Kolozsvár (today Cluj) by King Matthias. After the two Hungarian Universities were established, Pécs in 1367, and Buda in 1389, many Transylvanians sent their sons there, some of whom, after returning home, founded one by one the "Collegiums" of High Learning in Nagyenyed, Gyulafehérvar, Kolozsvár, Nagyvárad, Brassó, Arad, Zilah and Marosvásárhely.

    Due to the ecclesiastical domination of Rome as in other Western empires, the official language of science and administration in the Hungarian Kingdom was Latin. Therefore it was only in 1527 that the first book was printed in the Hungarian language in Kolozsvár. In 1598 there were already 24 printing establishments in Transylvania, publishing by that date 382 books, of which 368 were in the Hungarian language. There were 18 Transylvanian Hungarians enroled at the Wittenberg University in the year of 1586. Many Transylvanian Hungarians were teaching at famous Western Universities, while several famous Western scientists, such as Martin Opitz, John Alstead, Henry Bisterfeld and Isaac Basire taught in Transylvanian colleges during the 16th and 17th centuries. In 1545 the complete translation of the Bible appeared in the Hungarian language, printed in Kolozsvár. Shortly after, in 1582, financed by Hungarians and translated by Hungarians. the Bible was published in the Vlach language. In the 14th century two Transylvanian Hungarian brothers, Márton and György Kolozsvári, were famous sculptors. Most of their works were demolished through the many wars, except the well known statue of St.George in the city of Prague, which is today recognized as one of the greatest monuments of Gothic sculpture.

    Thus Transylvania, as part of Hungary, became the center of Hungarian culture. During the most troubled times of Central European history, when the conflict between Catholicism and Protestantism set fire to the emotions, in Transylvania the Hungarian preacher and philosopher Ferenc Dávid (1535-1579) was able to found and establish the Unitarian Church, and persuade the Congress of Torda in 1568 to declare, for the first time in the world, the freedom of religion.
    It is indeed not accidental that man's God-given right to choose his own religion and to worship freely and undisturbed was first recognized and legalized in Transylvania. This was a direct result of the Hungarian concept of freedom, as well as the respect toward the freedom of others, which permeated the entire Hungarian state-concept, and enabled the Hungarians to rule the Carpathian Basin successfully for a thousand years. This secured free development to every ethnic group which asked permission to settle within the Hungarian borders.

    Even after 1711, when Hungarian political independence was completely lost to Habsburg oppression, Hungarian culture in Transylvania not only kept in step with the cultural evolution of the rest of the country, but in many instances it became the guiding force of spiritual and cultural resistance. In fields of sciences, art and literature, Transylvania became the torch-bearer to the rest of oppressed Hungary. The same phenomenon repeated itself after 1849, when the Liberty War was crushed by the combined forces of Austria and Russia, and the darkness of revengeful oppression fell upon Hungary for the second time.

    It might be interesting to note that the first English-Tibetan dictionary was published in 1834 by a young Transylvanian Hungarian explorer, Sándor Kőrösi Csoma. The era between 1820 and 1867 is also regarded by many as the "golden age" of Hungarian national literature, brought forth by Habsburg oppression. Many of the great names in Hungarian literature were from Transylvania, such as Ferenc Kazinczy (1759-1831), Ferenc Kölcsey (1790-1838) Mihály Tompa (1817-1868) and others.
    In 1867 the "reconciliation" between Emperor Franz Joseph and the Hungarian nation opened the gates toward industrialization and economic upswing. Though economic progress was much slower reaching into Transylvania than in other parts of Hungary - due to distances, lack of roads, etc. - the revitalization of the Hungarian culture reached a new peak in Kolozsvár and the other Transylvanian cities. During the glorious years of the "millennium", Transylvania proudly celebrated its thousand-year-old cultural heritage within the framework of the thousand-year-old Hungarian national frontiers.

    [Romafication of Transylvania]

    When in 1919 the Rumanian army occupied Transylvania, and the brutal persecution of Hungarian officials, clergymen, educators and other intellectuals began with unprecedented Balkanic ferocity, Hungarian stamina was put to test. In Kolozsvár the Romanian army killed the major of the city on Christmas Eve and massacred innocent civilians of Hungarian nationality without any consideration on children, women and elders. The civilized World was shocked by the cruel and barbarian methods of the Rumanian army.

    Within a few weeks all geographical locations were renamed, from cities down to the most remote villages. Kolozsvár was changed overnight into Cluj, Nagyvárad into Oradea, Marosvásárhely into Tirgu Mures, Temesvár into Timisoara, etc. Many names were simply translated, such as Disznós into Porcu, Medvepatak into Ursu, Nagybánya into Baia Mare, Szentegyed into Sinte Jude, etc. Street markers were replaced and streets renamed. Those who were born and raised in one of the Transylvanian towns, and lived there all their lives, suddenly had to change their old established home address to a new-one, in a foreign language they did not even know how to pronounce. City halls, court houses, district offices, post offices, railroad stations were filled with new officials, imported from across the mountains, who did not speak the language of the population. Huge signs appeared everywhere: VORBITI NUMAI RUMUNESTI ! Speak only Rumanian. Those citizens who were unable to obey these signs because did not speak the Romanian language, were refused service, abused, and sometimes even beaten by the new police.

    The urban intellectuals of Transylvania suffered the most. Put out of their jobs, many of them were forced to leave the country. Others shifted into commerce or industry. Some of them became labourers, while many rallied around the only bulwarks left for Transylvanian culture: the churches, church-affiliated schools, and other cultural institutions, such as libraries, museums, civic societies, benevolent organizations, etc which were not yet dependent on the State. Rigid censorship was instituted by the Rumanian government toward Hungarian publications of any kind. In spite of this, by 1926 Transylvania had more Hungarian monthly periodicals, weekly publication, and daily newspapers than ever before. It was the automatic reaction of Hungarian national consciousness taking refuge in culture against the brutal oppression of a foreign and inferior civilization. Gy. Zathureczky writes in his book "Transylvania, Citadel of the West" (Danubian Press, 1967) page 46: "The Transylvania (Hungarian) Press, suffering under heavy censorship, lost its provincial character and rose to European level. The Transylvanian Literary Guild and the Transylvania Helikon gathered the writers and established a Hungarian Publishing Co-operative. A new and specifically Transylvanian literature was born. Struggling against poverty, and harassed by Romanian authorities, the Transylvanian Hungarian stage reached an unprecedented peak against all odds." In spite of the brutal political and economical oppression of a Balkan force, Transylvania remained part of the Western Culture. Just as an Austrian journalist aptly observed in the "Wiener Tagblatt", July 27, 1934: "Travelling through Transylvania one cannot help noticing that while the policeman on the street corner speaks only Romanian, within the walls of old town houses there is a very lively Hungarian cultural life going on, discussing with foreign guests Western ideas, Western literature, Western art, sometimes in three or four languages in the same time - none of which happens to be the language of the policeman down on the corner ...". Further down he stated: "The very fact that in those highly cultured Transylvanian circles everyone knows the names of German, French, English and American writers, scientists, actors, painters, but no one seems to know anything that goes on in Bucharest, shows clearly that in spite of the so-called 'peace treaties' the cultural boundaries between East and West are still firmly drawn on the ridges of the Carpathians ..."

    Even 20 years after the Rumanian take-over, Transylvania supported 38 periodicals in the Hungarian language, 5 Hungarian literary societies, and 12 Hungarian publishing houses. Twenty-seven Hungarian writers in Transylvania had one or more books published in foreign countries, while the Hungarian theatre of Kolozsvár was regarded by talent scouts all over the world as the springboard to fame for talented actors and actresses. Hungarian painters of Transylvania frequently toured Europe with their exhibits, and the Hungarian folk art of Kalotaszeg, Csík, Háromszék and Udvarhely reached the foreign markets with their embroidery and wood carvings.

    In spite of the political oppression and the strong economical discrimination, the dominant culture in Transylvania remained the Western oriented Hungarian culture, followed by the German in the German districts. Those few Rumanian authors, poets and artists who were born Transylvanians, were absorbed by Bucharest and the "Regat" (Old Kingdom), and had no contact whatsoever with the representatives of either the Hungarian or the German cultural circles in Transylvania. The name of Octavian Goga, the excellent Romanian poet, who though born in Transylvania, became known only among Hungarians and Germans after he was selected by the king of Romania to be the prime-minister of the country.
    In August 1940, when Northern Transylvania was returned to the Mother Country, it took only one day for such cities as Kolozsvár, Nagyvárad, Marosvásárhely to wipe off every trace of a Romanian occupation, and turn back into the thriving Hungarian cities they had been for hundreds of years. However, after World War II. when the Russian army handed Transylvania over to the Romanian government as a compensation for Bessarabia, all this has changed drastically. Hungarian publishing establishments were shut down. Within the new Romanian framework one single state-owned publishing establishment was formed to "serve the Hungarian cultural needs", not in Transylvania, but in Bucharest. This establishment, named "Kriterion", was allowed to publish only government-approved material, mostly translations from Romanian and Russian, and only a few ideologically sterilized Hungarian authors in limited editions.

    Even Hungarian language Bibles, donated by American Presbyterian Churches to the Transylvanian Calvinist Church were confiscated and turned into toilet paper. Public monuments, statues, historic markers were systematically destroyed and replaced with new ones, reflecting the new Romanian-dictated atmosphere. Old tombstones were destroyed, ancient churches "remodelled" in such a way that they lost their Hungarian character. The entire history was re-written, and the newly created false "history" is systematically introduced to the new generations. Even those very few Hungarian-language schools which are still left to operate must teach this falsified history to their pupils, according to which Transylvania is the "original homeland" of the Rumanian people, and the Hungarians were the "intruders" who ruled the native Rumanians by terror. According to the law, the presence of two Romanian children in any school suffice to have the language of instruction changed from Hungarian to Romanian. In schools where the language of instructions is Romanian, the children are forbidden to speak Hungarian among themselves, even during recess. Those children who disobey this rule are severely beaten by their teachers. Since the Romanian government has already brought more than 600,000 new Romanian settlers into Transylvania from Bessarabia, Bukovina and other parts of "old Romania" while in the same time deporting more than 300,000 Hungarians from their native land, it is clear that there is a well-planned cultural genocide going on, fully using the "unlimited possibilities" and brutalities of a totalitarian regime. During the second Word War half a million of Hungarians and Hungarian speaking Jews were killed by Romanian Army and other paramilitary organizations.
    In order to destroy every trace of the past, the Romanian government first nationalized, then systematically destroyed every old document preserved in Church archives, museums, libraries or private homes.
    It is indeed fortunate that many of the ancient Transylvanian documents, dating back as far as the 11th century, were transferred to the Hungarian National Archives in Budapest, some before World War I, and others during World War II. Thus, in spite of all the Rumanian efforts to eradicate the past, the true history of Transylvania can still be proven by thousands of ancient documents and the traces of the once great Western-oriented culture of the Hungarians in Transylvania can still be found in libraries and museums, not in Hungary alone, but also in Austria, Germany, Italy, France, England, and the United States of America.

    The Romanian culture is entirely different from that known as the "Transylvanian culture", which is in reality a regional diversity of the West-oriented Hungarian culture. The Rumanian culture is Balkan-oriented, and specifically Rumanian, based on the history of the Vlach migration from South across to Albania, and from there up to Wallachia and Moldavia. It was brought forth by Balkan influences, just as the Romanian language itself, which is composed, according to the Romanian linguist Cihac, "of 45.7% Slavic, 31.5% Latin, 8.4% Turkish, 7% Greek, 6% Hungarian and 0.6% Albanian words." Even today, the Romanian culture as such, has no roots in Transylvania. It is being "imported" constantly and purposefully from Bucharest into the Transylvanian province in order to crowd out and replace the traditional Hungarian culture of this conquered and subjugated land.

    Future of Transylvania and its capital Kolozsvár is to return to Central Europe and to Hungarian Culture where it belongs. Transylvania was GIVEN to Romania in 1921, and again in 1947, without a plebiscite. This notorious Treaty is known as The Diktat of Trianon, Hungarians were forced to sign in Paris. Ever since Transylvania was awarded to Romania, Hungarians, Germans and other ethnic minorities have suffered at the hands of Romanian Chauvinists. They have consistently and systematically been subjest to forced assimilation and persecution. Romania is probably the most xenophobic country in Europe today. Romanians in cities like Marosvásárhely (targu mures) and Kolozsvár (cluj) are practising ethnic cleansing an a scale only seen in former Yugoslavia. Hungarians are subject to constant discrimination, Hungarian signs are painted over or not allowed at all, intimidation by Gheorghe Funar is carried out against Hungarians on a daily basis aimed at driving out all Hungarians from this ancient Magyar land.
    It is good form to use a spoiler tag to shorten such long articles. It would be better to leave a link and not copy the whole book --- VP
    Last edited by Viking Prince; February 14, 2010 at 03:15 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Where does a very disputed area, Transylvania, belong?



    See the map? Dispute over.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  3. #3

    Default Re: Where does a very disputed area, Transylvania, belong?

    Though some people consider Transylvania to be Hungarian, since it had been Hungarian for many hundreds of years, until a ethnic cleansing took place in early 20th century.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Where does a very disputed area, Transylvania, belong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    Though some people consider Transylvania to be Hungarian, since it had been Hungarian for many hundreds of years, until a ethnic cleansing took place in early 20th century.
    Yep, we killed them Hungarians good. If they want it back they can come get it. Til then, tough titties.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    And also do not forget that Romanians troops sacked Budapest (and from this robbery they created the Romanian industry), showing no mercy, not even to women and children. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/album...pictureid=3411
    Last edited by Nikitn; February 14, 2010 at 02:25 PM.

  6. #6
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Massive spam is deleted. Please behave gentle members. Lurkers are not impressed. -- VP
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Transylvania is a region, not a person or cultural artifact. Whatever it was in the past, during the formation of the Balkan nation states it was a region of majority Romanian people that was joined to Romania by the Allies.

    It can only be considered Hungarian when discussing it as a historical presence as a part of the Crown of Hungary, but this should not bleed into modern definitions and internationally recognized borders. The Czech Republic is no more Austrian for having been ruled over by Austrian kings and inhabited by an Austrian elite than Transylvania is Hungarian.

  8. #8
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    Transylvania is a region, not a person or cultural artifact. Whatever it was in the past, during the formation of the Balkan nation states it was a region of majority Romanian people that was joined to Romania by the Allies.

    It can only be considered Hungarian when discussing it as a historical presence as a part of the Crown of Hungary, but this should not bleed into modern definitions and internationally recognized borders. The Czech Republic is no more Austrian for having been ruled over by Austrian kings and inhabited by an Austrian elite than Transylvania is Hungarian.
    u mistake nikitn's motives for putting this thread up. He has had some bitter battles with romanians and others in a thread relating to Russia's claim on the title of Rome and has thus, as an attempt to 'get back' at them has attacked their sovereignty over Transylvania without considering much of the political realities and historic facts - but these 2 factors never play a role in his arguments, as im sure u are aware of (this ethnic cleansing nobody knows about being one example among many)
    Last edited by Carach; February 15, 2010 at 10:34 AM.

  9. #9
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach View Post
    u mistake nikitn's motives for putting this thread up. He has had some bitter battles with romanians and others in a thread relating to Russia's claim on the title of Rome and has thus, as an attempt to 'get back' at them has attacked their sovereignty over Transylvania without considering much of the political realities and historic facts - but these 2 factors never play a role in his arguments, as im sure u are aware of (this ethnic cleansing nobody knows about being one example among many)
    Na, nikitn probably mixed with what Czech did on German with Romanian and Hungarian...
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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    Transylvania is a region, not a person or cultural artifact.
    this part is enough for me
    world belongs to us humans
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?



  12. #12
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Under the very slim chance that this is a topic that will receive a good historic and logical discussion -- the thread will remain open. TWC policy is to promote discussion and not to shut down topics.

    I have visited this thread four times today to do some housekeeping. I now expect it to stay neat and clean as a pin. However -- if members cannot stay on topic, there will be consequences.

    You have been warned.

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  13. #13
    uzi716's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Well its pretty clear historical borders don't mean squat anymore so Transylvania is Romanian.





  14. #14

    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    The word Transylvania is clearly a Hungarian word. As i wrote in another thread the first written mention about "Transylvania" came from 11th century.
    In Hungarian erdőelve/erdély mean "land beyond the forest" from Hungarian point of view. The rumenian Ardeal is a borrowed word from hungarian Erdély mean nothing in rumenian language and they newer called this land as Dacia (so daco-romans who didn't know the correct name of their "original" land). The first written mention about rumenian "Ardeal" came from 15th century. It's also well documented that wallachia was "havaselve" by hungarians mean "snowy land beyond the mountains" (snowy plan) from hungarian point of view, this name are used by hungarians even today as well... The name "wallachia" was appear in 13th century when the first vlachs arrived to north of danube.
    On his deathbed, hungarian John Hunyadi told his countrymen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Defend, my friends, Christendom and Hungary from all enemies... Do not quarrel among yourselves. If you should waste your energies in altercations, you will seal your own fate as well as dig the grave of our country."

    Only rumenian extremists claim that John Hunyadi was rumenian! John Hunyadi's father was Vajk his brother name was Magos, John's brother name was also Vajk both name Vajk&Magos are ancient hungarian names!
    Hungarian principality of Transylvania

  15. #15
    mircea's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Transylvania is Romanian. Case (and failed topic) closed.

    Next time you should just take an geographic atlas. I would be easier and faster.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Exactly. All the Romanians are saying "look at the map" reffering to the ethnic cleansing carried out in 1945, when the Soviets gave Transylvania to Romania.

    It is concluded that Transylvania is Hungarian territory.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    Exactly. All the Romanians are saying "look at the map" reffering to the ethnic cleansing carried out in 1945, when the Soviets gave Transylvania to Romania.

    It is concluded that Transylvania is Hungarian territory.
    Maybe you want to provide us some proofs about the "ethnic cleansing" in 1945, otherwise we can conclude you extracted this "facts" right from your ass.

    In 1930, Hungarians were 26,7% of the total population. In 1948 they were 25,7%. Seeing this statistics explain to me where you can see "ethnic cleansing" in 1945.

    Quote Originally Posted by snipa View Post
    The word Transylvania is clearly a Hungarian word. As i wrote in another thread the first written mention about "Transylvania" came from 11th century. In Hungarian erdőelve/erdély mean "land beyond the forest" from Hungarian point of view. The rumenian Ardeal is a borrowed word from hungarian Erdély mean nothing in rumenian language and they newer called this land as Dacia (so daco-romans who didn't know the correct name of their "original" land). The first written mention about rumenian "Ardeal" came from 15th century. It's also well documented that wallachia was "havaselve" by hungarians mean "snowy land beyond the mountains" (snowy plan) from hungarian point of view, this name are used by hungarians even today as well... The name "wallachia" was appear in 13th century when the first vlachs arrived to north of danube.
    First of all Transylvania is a Latin word, you can claim Erdely to be Hungarian but not Transylvania. I don't claim Transylvania originate her name from Romanian but its still a Latin name. It doesn't matter Hungarians named Transylvania, this shows they had political power to do that not that Hungarians were the first in Transylvania before Romanians. Lombardia in Italy is named after Lombards, this doesn't mean the region is Germanic.

    As for Romanians not naming their ancient land "Dacia", neither the French name their country "Gaul" anymore. Also Daco-Romans lived in the province of Dacia, but they considered themselvs Roman citizens, not Dacians : Dacia was for them only an administrative division (not a country) that disapeared when the Empire abandoned the region.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    Though some people consider Transylvania to be Hungarian, since it had been Hungarian for many hundreds of years, until a ethnic cleansing took place in early 20th century.
    I will not comment anymore on the "ethnic cleansing" but on the myth of Transylvania being Hungarian for a milennium.

    First of all Transylvania was not the initially part of Hungarian Kingdom, it had to be conquered around 1000 AD by Saint Stephen a century after Hungarians established themselves in Pannonia. Then Transylvania was always a separate part of Hungarian Kingdom, with a voivode at its head, the country being a voivodate like were Moldavia and Wallachia. This shows non Hungarian institutional traditions in Transylvania. The fact Transylvania was separate means Transylvania wasn't fully Hungarian, hence the need to treat it apart.

    Transylvania ceassed to be part of Hungary since 1526/1540 when after Mohac the Medieval Hungarian Kingdom was disolved. Untill 1699 Transylvania was an autonomous part of Ottoman Empire, having a similar regime as Moldavia and Wallachia. It was ruled by Hungarian nobles that treated Romanians in a regime similar with apartheid, but still it wasn't part of Hungary. Then after 1699/1711 Transylvania became a part of Habsburg Empire, being ruled directly by Vienna and not as a part of Hungary. The central authorities were Austrian, only at a local level Hungarian nobles ruled the opressed Romanian peasantry.

    Only with Austro-Hungarian dualism in 1867 Transylvania was forcebly integrated in the Hungarian state radicalising Romanian nationals that were about 59% of the population.
    Last edited by CiviC; February 15, 2010 at 01:55 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    I actualy think that Transylvania is both Hungarian and Romanian both peoples have great historical claims to the land so is lot hard saying who should have it or is that or this also dont forget the Germans that lived there for centuries aswell.

  19. #19
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Transylvania is Romanian! Panonia was Thracian until Hungarians came!

    Hungarians=Magyars=On-Ogur (10 arrows)=Fino-Ugrians (7 tribes)+Khazar Turks (3 tribes) they were not Huns!!!
    Last edited by Visarion; March 08, 2010 at 09:41 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is Transylvania Hungarian or Romanian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    Transylvania is Romanian!
    I'm speaking about history of Transylvania and not about the current situation. And according to history, "Erdely" is a Hungarian name which was learn by vlach in 13th century from Hungarians. It's also well known that vlach newer called this land as "Transylvania" to 19th century.

    Just a mention I'm speaking about my original homeland as my Transylvanian family-tree documented from begin of 14th century. I'm sure no any Rumenian can show me a longer family-tree from Transylvania!

    Panonia was Thracian until Hungarians came!
    Then u should check the history again...

    Hungarians=Magyars=On-Ogur (10 arrows)=Fino-Ugrians (7 tribes)+Khazar Turks (3 tribes) they were not Huns!!!
    All favorite chronicles which are used by Rumenians to prove their fictions stated that Hungarians are descendant of Huns and they came back to Carpathian basin (according to Laszlo Gyula who was a very famous professor said Hungarians came here at least 2 times but maybe 3 times (huns, avars, magyars) ). As I said sometimes Rumenians like our sources sometimes not...
    On his deathbed, hungarian John Hunyadi told his countrymen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Defend, my friends, Christendom and Hungary from all enemies... Do not quarrel among yourselves. If you should waste your energies in altercations, you will seal your own fate as well as dig the grave of our country."

    Only rumenian extremists claim that John Hunyadi was rumenian! John Hunyadi's father was Vajk his brother name was Magos, John's brother name was also Vajk both name Vajk&Magos are ancient hungarian names!
    Hungarian principality of Transylvania

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