Line formation shooters

**w00t** · February 14, 2010, 01:34 PM

Hi,
In a line formation of let's say three, shouldn't they all fire at the enemy?
First line fires, then they stop to recharge. After that the second line fires, stop to recharge.
Final line fires.

'Cause what I can see is that only the first line fires, and the rest of the lines behind just do nothing.
And I don't think this 'feature' should be researched.
PS: I am at the beginning of the Grand Campaign.

Check the print screen.
10x.

**Dizoakius Maximus** · February 14, 2010, 01:38 PM

Just so we're clear: have you researched "Fire by Rank" yet? If not, you'll just have mass fire and they all just sorta discharge at once and then take forever to reload.

**Monsieur Alphonse** · February 14, 2010, 01:41 PM

If you don't have rank fire researched (and are not playing an Eastern faction) only the front row will fire. Also militia units will can't fire by rank.

**w00t** · February 14, 2010, 01:43 PM

Ah, I see.. it wasn't clear for me (started the first campaign a long time ago and I forgot).. haven't yet researched fire by rank.

But that's kind of silly, no? I mean the rest just stare, they don't fire

**Dizoakius Maximus** · February 14, 2010, 01:52 PM

While you'd think "fire by rank" would be a rather rudimentary thing for a unit to learn, apparently peforming it during the smoke, chaos, and noise of battle is difficult.

The drill to load a musket (according to a drill book) was anywhere from 9-19 different steps (while we break it down to, load, prime, arm, and fire - they had different evolutions that included using the ram-rods a set number of times or placing your hand under the cartridge box flap before being ordered to withdraw a cartridge...) crazy I know, but this is how they instilled discipline in their firing lines.

Besides, having a Militia unit pull that type of stuff off would probably be pretty difficult. Remember, these aren't the cream of the crop we're talking about here.

**Valkierei** · February 14, 2010, 07:20 PM

yes but a 7 year old can listen to orders to bend down. drills build morale by giving confidence to the people of average IQ. by showing them the path to take in battle. if there were no drills, soldiers might feel lost, give up, and run for home.

drills help to : reduce friendly fire,
build morale,
instill morale damage to the enemy,
increase reload rates,
ensure less technical difficulties, like not jamming the ram rod properly.

even the cream of the crop you're talking about are usually people with 105IQ. pretty pretty darn fcking average. why else would they join the army? =)

so yes militia should be able to fire from all 3 rows. that's just my point of view. not systematically, but random pushing the person in front of you back and firing, and going to hide behind someone's back while reloading. that sorta thing.

you must think of people idiots to not fire their weapons in face of danger. what happened to survival instincts.

**43rdFoot** · February 14, 2010, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Valkierei

yes but a 7 year old can listen to orders to bend down. drills build morale by giving confidence to the people of average IQ. by showing them the path to take in battle. if there were no drills, soldiers might feel lost, give up, and run for home.

drills help to : reduce friendly fire,
build morale,
instill morale damage to the enemy,
increase reload rates,
ensure less technical difficulties, like not jamming the ram rod properly.

even the cream of the crop you're talking about are usually people with 105IQ. pretty pretty darn fcking average. why else would they join the army? =)

so yes militia should be able to fire from all 3 rows. that's just my point of view. not systematically, but random pushing the person in front of you back and firing, and going to hide behind someone's back while reloading. that sorta thing.

you must think of people idiots to not fire their weapons in face of danger. what happened to survival instincts.

Quite honestly, Fire by Rank, at least in the way it's portrayed in the game, is not a really practical or practicable firing drill. It's simply too much to ask of men under the stress of a battlefield.

**Alf** · February 15, 2010, 12:28 PM

yup 43rdfoot has a point there, its already as hard as it is to stand and shoot at each other in a discipline yet alone waiting for other lines to finish discharging weapons so that you can fire your "already-loaded" weapon. (Gosh I never understand how the very front rows in battles could stand and fight)

**Lumina** · February 15, 2010, 01:32 PM

They didn't, they died.

Really though. If you look at the American Civil War, a regiment of lets say 1000 was easily turned into around 300 by the end of just one battle, a group of 300 could be reduced to fewer than a 100 by the next battle, then if not disbanded, reorganized into other regiments. They fought in lines, sometimes an entire row of men would go down, and yet they'd keep marching forward. One regiment in the battle of Cold Harbor, the entire regiment was wounded or killed and the only man left was the Flag Barrier, the CSA soldiers waves and booed trying to catch his attention rather than shooting him becaus ehe didn't even realise he was the only man left standing. He honorablely saluted, turned around and marched the other way when he finally realised the situation he was in, the CSA troops lifted their hats and cheers waving him off. I wish I could remember that Regiments name and number.

**rasmusx15** · February 15, 2010, 01:46 PM

Well... As far as I know, the men in the front line was historically firering the rifle, while the other rows were reloading the rifles for them and then pass them on to the front row again :b

But what do I know?

**Langer Kerl** · February 15, 2010, 02:01 PM

On a side note, there are mods that fix this issue. For example, you'll start out with "mass fire" which has the whole unit fire at once, and the later "fire by rank" just increases reload speed and adds some eye candy.

It makes way more sense this way. In vanilla, the upgrade to "fire by rank" effectively tripples your firepower and is the technology to go for asap, always.

**Lumina** · February 15, 2010, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Langer Kerl

On a side note, there are mods that fix this issue. For example, you'll start out with "mass fire" which has the whole unit fire at once, and the later "fire by rank" just increases reload speed and adds some eye candy.

It makes way more sense this way. In vanilla, the upgrade to "fire by rank" effectively tripples your firepower and is the technology to go for asap, always.

Mass fire would be nice if the engagement range was increased to the same as Light Infantry, and accuracy reduced. Mass Fire is just too deadly on ETW to be allowed for larger regiments, Frei Korp literally rapes a Line Infantry regiment for example.

Also I wish Mass Fire was limited to two ranks thick, it looks better, and having a 3rd rank fire never made much sense unless the first rank was kneeling. American Civil War they fought in two to three rank formations, if in three ranks it was either because of terrian caused them to bunch up more, or the regimental commander decided it would be better for a volley in that situation, when doing so the first rank was to kneel, 2nd rank stands steddy, 3rd rank woudl take a half step so it can aim over the shoulder of the 2nd rank, and wam massive volley. Normally though it was two ranks, with first rank standing steddy and 2nd rank taking a half step so it can fire over the shoulder, and it's really how they'd fight, one big volley, then sometimes if not most they were allowed to fire at will after that.

Soldiers in the American Civil War often fought less professionally though, often using roads as trenches, trees for cover in defense, performing like a large skirmish line of a couple hundred men, smart officers would encourage on defense to not stand in a line formation and take cover with anything possible including bodies of fallen comrades. Some cases reloading in a teadious way laying down, which was slow, but very hard to get hit, very hard for whom is shooting you to see, but allowing you to see the advancing enemy and still get accurate shots off.

I don't know too much about how wars were fought in Europe during the 1700 and 1800s but I really like the American Civil War as it was far less professionally fought regimently anyways. Very few elite units, most of the time the best trained troops were artillery, or guard regiments for places like Washington DC whom rarely saw any action and spent most of their time drilling, only to find the situation on the field when desperation fianlly called them out to be far different than standard drills. When I look at 1700 and 1800s I just think the American Civil War, because of it's sometimes less stand in line and get shot way battles were fought.

**Bsodmin** · February 16, 2010, 05:04 PM

Fire by rank is not portrayed correctly in this game(I dont care. really). Since the muzzleloaders are awkward to reload kneeling, the rear ranks fire first with forward ranks kneeling. I don't know about future firing drill when breechloaders were dev.
Militia were part-time soldiers, without disipline of the marching regiments. They could not do this, and should not in the game.

**Lumina** · February 16, 2010, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bsodmin

Fire by rank is not portrayed correctly in this game(I dont care. really). Since the muzzleloaders are awkward to reload kneeling, the rear ranks fire first with forward ranks kneeling. I don't know about future firing drill when breechloaders were dev.
Militia were part-time soldiers, without disipline of the marching regiments. They could not do this, and should not in the game.

Actually reloading from a kneeling position was possible. It was less effective and took more time, reloading while laying down was even possible though the musket had to be tilted upword still but just enough, ram rod did the rest of the work, again, slower, less effective, but still was possible, and was also practiced.