Age of Gunpowder not swords

[CerealGuy]

whats the point of guns if the BAI just sees it as a sword or a melee weapon
Even Med2 or Rome BAI knew that Ranged units are ment to shoot and not charge until out of ammo whats the point of giving units guns if they don't use it .
I hope they fix it for Napoleon TW. Anyone find this annoying?

[l33tl4m3r]

They say they are going to fix it;
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=331066

...we'll see!

[Swellick]

Actually while the AI does attack in melee a bit too much most of the fighting in this time period ended in melee.



Even one of the quotes in game referrs to this:

"The bullet is an idiot, but the bayonet - a fine fellow"
-Suvrov

[daniu]

"The bullet is an idiot, but the bayonet - a fine fellow"

I'm pretty sure it was "the bullet is a strange thing, only the bayonet knows what it is about".

[Mowers]

Actually while the AI does attack in melee a bit too much most of the fighting in this time period ended in melee.



Even one of the quotes in game referrs to this:

"The bullet is an idiot, but the bayonet - a fine fellow"
-Suvrov

Numerous studies since the 70s have demonstrated this to be absolutely untrue.

Indeed the 9/10 figure quoted before is also inaccurate.

Its more like 99/100 of infantry inflicted wounds were caused by musket fire as opposed to hand to hand combat during the Napoleonic period. There was almost no close quarters fighting in field engagements at all.

It was very difficult to get soldiers to close with the enemy, if one side did charge the other side inevitably broke before the charge impacted.

I suggest you read forward into battle by paddy Griffith as a starting point.

CA are just inept.

[Lumina]

Give everyone less morale and melee would no longer exist, the first few volley's would make a charging regiment flounder.

Thing is to shoot shoot shoot until morale is very low, then order a charge with the glitter of bayonents, to finish off and break. lol

[Mowers]

Give everyone less morale and melee would no longer exist, the first few volley's would make a charging regiment flounder.

Thing is to shoot shoot shoot until morale is very low, then order a charge with the glitter of bayonents, to finish off and break. lol

That would be awesome.

but it would also require CA to understand the basics of the period and that is asking an awful lot of a company that has repeatedly proved to be unable to provide or understand the basics of much.

[daniu]

Give everyone less morale and melee would no longer exist, the first few volley's would make a charging regiment flounder.

Thing is to shoot shoot shoot until morale is very low, then order a charge with the glitter of bayonents, to finish off and break. lol

I think the effectiveness of bullets vs melee is okay, it's just the BAI that doesn't get its act together to get a firing line.
The problem is virtually inexistant in MP; melee does happen, but appropriately rarely IMHO.

[sysy16]

Indeed the 9/10 figure quoted before is also inaccurate.

Its more like 99/100 of infantry inflicted wounds were caused by musket fire as opposed to hand to hand combat during the Napoleonic period. There was almost no close quarters fighting in field engagements at all.

CA are just inept.

I made the 9/10 figure off the top of my head- there have been a number of different studies about bullet versus cold steel wounds and I'd be as well saying your figure of 99/100 is inaccurate. It was meant to relect the fact that someone suggested that bayonet/hand to hand fighting was common, to which we clearly both agree is a myth.

Griffiths is good but for any of you soon to be Napoleon total war gamers, Nosworthy and Muirs books on tactics of the Napoleonic wars are good. Even cavalry versus cavalry often ran before hand to hand contact began. I guess many folks perhaps have this vision of crap films like "The Patriot" and so on as being realistic with loads of H2H fighting taking place when in fact almost all of the time, as soon as one side looked like it meant to go in with the bayonet, the other found an excuse to be somewhere else and routed.

[CerealGuy]

then whats then point of giving them a gun? might as well make everyone fight with a pike since thats what a bayonet essential was. Plus thats Russian warfare

[Greve Af Göteborg]

@MedontCare: 19'th century guns were ineffective at killing someone, the sword and bayonet ruled the day when it comes to kill-count.

[LiN]

@MedontCare: 19'th century guns were ineffective at killing someone, the sword and bayonet ruled the day when it comes to kill-count.

lolwut? Wrong century.

[43rdFoot]

lolwut? Wrong century.

Moar like wrong everything lolololol

"A pike is useless at close ranges. Pikemen of the 17th century often carried swords for such combats."

I'm aware of that, and you're right, at close range pikemen would use their swords if the enemy got past the spear points and were in hand to hand.

Have a look at how the pikemen actually fight in ETW. They don't actually use their 18 foot reach advantage, even against cavalry. While holding on to their pikes with their left hand, which they raise to point at the sky, the pikemen engage with their swords. In RTW the pikemen actually fought using "push of pike".

I usually disband my pike pretty early on as I don't really like watching them using their pikes as parasols instead of skewering their enemies.

This is true. It's been a while since I actually used pikemen, and I forgot about their absolute worthlessness. The only thing they do half well is when you put them in their defensive stance. It's useful against cavalry.

I generally keep them as port defenses. They are useful at keeping enemy ships out.

[CerealGuy]

I generally keep them as port defenses. They are useful at keeping enemy ships out.

Ships are actually better seeing as they can intercept small fleets and they have less unkeep if i recall plus if your ever in a situation you can amass the ships
Also if Melee weapons were > than gunpowder then how did the Aztecs and other people from the "new world" lose when they severly outnumbered them and it was 16th century muskets they were using?

[rapidkiller]

Also if Melee weapons were > than gunpowder then how did the Aztecs and other people from the "new world" lose when they severly outnumbered them and it was 16th century muskets they were using?

A combination of steel, horses, disease, good diplomacy, poor leadership and the fact that Aztecs usually fought to take prisoner rather to kill like the spainards?

[orange]

Try Darth mod. You will not see such things again.

[StrawberryDUTCH]

And let's remember that the AI, dumb as it is, is still well aware of the differences between it's own and it's opponents units' stats, and as such knows when it's a good idea to shoot it out and when to charge. When you see an enemy unit in melee with it's side facing towards the fight - that's the melee bug. When you see them charging, that's the AI being clever. Funny how being clever and being stupid are so indistinguishable sometimes..

[sysy16]

To the two posters who said that it ended in melee....

Sorry, but your wrong.

Very wrong.

Even in the later Napoleonic wars, actual bayonet fighting was very very rare. One side normally ran away at the point of contact.

9 out of 10 wounds were caused by fire, not sword/bayonet.

The games BAI is laughable in this respect.

[Lord Dakier]

And let's remember that the AI, dumb as it is, is still well aware of the differences between it's own and it's opponents units' stats, and as such knows when it's a good idea to shoot it out and when to charge. When you see an enemy unit in melee with it's side facing towards the fight - that's the melee bug. When you see them charging, that's the AI being clever. Funny how being clever and being stupid are so indistinguishable sometimes..

I'm not sure why but I only see the Ai standing to the side shooting from their side in Darth Mod. I've never seen the Ai stand to the side and use their sides shoot out of Darth Mod however, melee charges I see quite a bit however I get nice volleys off as they charge.

In this day and age I think firing the weapons and then charging with bayonets would of been most succesfull like what the Scotts done.

[Ragerancher]

The bayonet itself didn't cause a huge amount of deaths. The charge was often what caused the enemy to finally break though.