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  1. #1
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default White House - health summit

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pid=sec-health
    White House sends out invites for health summit
    By ERICA WERNER
    The Associated Press
    Friday, February 12, 2010; 6:48 PM
    WASHINGTON -- In a make or break move, President Barack Obama on Friday challenged three dozen Republicans and Democrats to participate in a one-of-its-kind televised summit this month to thrash out a deal on health care.

    Republicans immediately greeted the invite to the Feb. 25 event with derision, casting doubt on whether it would yield any bipartisan agreement to extend coverage to millions of Americans and rein in medical costs. House Republican Leader John Boehner of Ohio questioned the makeup of the guest list and continued closed-door Democratic negotiations to produce a final bill.

    "Are they willing to start over with a blank sheet of paper? We need answers before we know if the White House is more interested in partisan theater than in facilitating a productive dialogue about solutions," said Kevin Smith, a spokesman for Boehner.

    The summit is considered a last, best attempt to revive Obama's yearlong quest, now stalled after Democrats lost their filibuster-proof Senate majority. Yet since Obama proposed the summit last weekend, Republicans and Democrats have voiced skepticism, with some in the GOP wondering if would be nothing but a spectacle that could benefit the president at their expense.

    By presiding over a meeting with three dozen lawmakers trying to get a word in edgewise, Obama may be able to dominate the conversation and the visual images. That's what many Democrats say he did at a Jan. 29 session when he faced a roomful of GOP House members in Baltimore, controlling the microphone for much of the event.
    Continued
    Seriously though, the GOP is attacking another attempt by Obama to invite them into the fold and all they can ask for is to start completely over so they can play a new round of delaying reform. Overall they dont want anything to pass so come 2010 they can rail against Obama lack of reform.

    The GOP know that if Obama is able to sign anything into law than they will have lost a platform from which to attack him from. They are delaying every chance to pass healthcare reform and it doesnt matter what is included in the bill.

    See here.

    Or here at Newsweek.
    In their 2009 report to Congress, the Medicare trustees estimate that the 10-year cost of Medicare Part D is as high as $1.2 trillion. That figure—just for prescription-drug coverage that people over 65 still have to pay a lot of money for—dwarfs the $848 billion cost of the Senate bill. The price of prescription coverage continues to escalate because the law explicitly bars the government from using its market power to negotiate drug prices with manufacturers or establishing a formulary with approved medications. And unlike the Democratic bills, which the Congressional Budget Office says won't add to the deficit, the bill George W. Bush signed was financed entirely through deficit spending. Former comptroller general David M. Walker has called it "probably the most fiscally irresponsible piece of legislation since the 1960s."

    Of the 28 remaining Republicans who were in the Senate back in 2003, 24 voted for the Medicare prescription-drug benefit. Of 122 Republicans still in the House, 108 voted for it. This hall of shame includes Alexander of Tennessee, Enzi of Wyoming, Brownback of Kansas, and Hatch of Utah. Here, for example, is John Kyl of Arizona in 2003: "As a member of the bipartisan team that crafted the Part D legislation, I am committed to ensuring its successful implementation. I will fight attempts to erode Part D coverage." Six years later, Kyl calls Harry Reid's Democratic health-care legislation "a trillion-dollar bill that raises premiums, increases taxes, and raids Medicare."
    Or from NYTimes columnist Krugman.

    ...After all, you could explain this about-face by supposing that Republicans have had a change of heart, that they have finally realized just how much good Medicare does. And if you believe that, I’ve got some mortgage-backed securities you might want to buy.

    No, what’s truly mind-boggling is this: Even as Republicans denounce modest proposals to rein in Medicare’s rising costs, they are, themselves, seeking to dismantle the whole program. And the process of dismantling would begin with spending cuts of about $650 billion over the next decade. Math is hard, but I do believe that’s more than the roughly $400 billion (not $500 billion) in Medicare savings projected for the Democratic health bills.

    What I’m talking about here is the “Roadmap for America’s Future,” the budget plan recently released by Representative Paul Ryan, the ranking Republican member of the House Budget Committee. Other leading Republicans have been bobbing and weaving on the official status of this proposal, but it’s pretty clear that Mr. Ryan’s vision does, in fact, represent what the G.O.P. would try to do if it returns to power....
    Or hear it from their own words here.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Its all about power. Oppose everything the other party proposes so come next election you can claim the other side failed to enact any kind of reform. What is this start over . The conservatives refused to participate the first time around, instead demanding no to everything and now they want to start over... please.

  2. #2

    Default Re: White House - health summit

    The conservatives do not have near total control over Congress. They are not to blame for Democrats lack of unity.

    In a recession people only wanted to hear an see work on jobs. Democrats

  3. #3
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Yes yes yes, Republicans are to blame. Them and their damn minority in both the house and the senate and no white house this year. Boy they pulled one over us gee golly.

    Do you really believe this stuff?
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Yes yes yes, Republicans are to blame.
    ...yes? Just about every single problem with America today can be traced directly to the conservative backlash of the 70's. Healthcare is no exception, and probably worse than most. Just sayin.



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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by jabarto View Post
    ...yes? Just about every single problem with America today can be traced directly to the conservative backlash of the 70's. Healthcare is no exception, and probably worse than most. Just sayin.
    Care to elaborate on your gross overgeneralization?
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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    It is not unreasonable to strip out all of the gunk in the US Senate bill -- I mean do we really need each of those 2700 pages to make an improvement in the delivery and financing of healthcare by the US government? That is what is meant by starting over. The Republicans are not suggesting a literal clean slate, new hearings, and new ideas. We have had the hearing and we have plenty of ideas floated about. Just start with a blank page when writing the bipartisan legislation. And then the same with the US House bill. Then let the two chambers merge the two bills based upon common ground. The president does not need to use either bill to get this moving.
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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    I'm glad the Republicans still have some courage to oppose Obama's radical, evil Communist philosophy. I hope this fails over and over, driving that vile man's approval down to Hell. God bless those evil Republicans!
    "Pauci viri sapientiae student."
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  8. #8

    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    I'm glad the Republicans still have some courage to oppose Obama's radical, evil Communist philosophy. I hope this fails over and over, driving that vile man's approval down to Hell. God bless those evil Republicans!
    he's not a communist, he is actualyl far less a socialist even than Palin is a Theocratic xenophobe. On a related note how goes your plan to solve the lack of health care, have you settled on gassing or shooting yet? Or just dying of treatable diseases that the insurers have scammed out of paying for?
    Last edited by justicar5; February 13, 2010 at 12:44 PM.

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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    In the interest of adding some meat to the discussion -- one plan that keeps popping up was first proposed in 2007. That would be the Wyden-Bennett plan:

    Legislation | Senator Ron Wyden | Standing Up for All of Oregon


    A good comment on the plan was posted in 2008 by the Heritage Foundation:

    Lawmakers Should Approach Wyden-Bennett Health Bill with Caution

    March 13, 2008
    Lawmakers Should Approach Wyden–Bennett Health Bill with Caution
    by Nina Owcharenko
    WebMemo #1849
    By introducing the Healthy Americans Act (S. 334), Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) and his chief co-sponsor, Senator Robert Bennett (R-UT), have courageously challenged the status quo on the federal tax treatment of health insurance and public health programs for the poor. The bill correctly targets the inequitable tax treatment of health care that favors coverage obtained through the place of work. It also recognizes the weakness of the existing public health programs, Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). The bipartisan bill has attracted a dozen co-sponsors, drawn equally from both parties.
    Still, as the chief sponsors point out, the bill is a work in progress, intended to stimulate discussion. And despite many attractive tax reform aspects, a troubling feature of the bill is that it would replace the current health system with one that is heavily regulated by the federal government: Individuals would have access only to plans permitted by the government and would be required to purchase such a plan.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Instead of adopting features of the bill that turn to government regulation in an effort to squeeze out efficiencies in the system, lawmakers attracted to tax features of the Wyden-Bennett bill should look at a better way of achieving efficient and affordable insurance. Specifically, Congress should replace the existing system of public and private third-party arrangements with a robust consumer-based system in which individuals and families, not the government, are the key decision-makers and change is driven by the free-market principles of personal choice and genuine competition.
    Key Provisions
    S. 334 would overhaul the American health care system in a number of ways.
    Reforming the Tax Treatment of Insurance. S. 334 tackles the central flaw in America's health care financing: the inequitable tax treatment of health insurance. Current law provides unlimited tax relief for coverage obtained through an employer but no comparable relief for those who purchase coverage outside their places of work. A growing number of experts, both liberal and conservative, recognize that this is a major problem.
    S. 334 would replace the current tax preference for employer-based health coverage with a new individual-based system. The bill would end the tax exclusion in the personal income tax for employer-based health insurance benefits and instead use a combination of subsidies and tax deductions for health insurance. Individuals and families earning at or below 100 percent of the federal poverty level (FPL) would receive a subsidy to offset the full cost of coverage. Individuals and families earning up to 400 percent of the FPL would receive a partial subsidy based on a sliding scale. In addition, the bill establishes an "above the line" tax deduction for health care. The deduction begins to phase out for individuals earning above $62,500 and families earning above $125,000. It is fully phased out for individuals earning $125,000 and families earning $250,000.
    Comment: The tax reform repealing the unlimited tax exclusion for employer-based coverage is a bold step in the right direction, but the new tax structure would replace one inequitable structure (the exclusion) with another. As noted, only individuals earning below $125,000 and families earning below $250,000 would receive relief for health insurance under this plan. Ideally, the current employer-based tax structure should be replaced with a fair and equitable universal tax credit. An across-the-board, fixed-dollar health care tax credit, for example, would offer every American federal tax relief for health care.
    Reforming Public Health Programs. S. 334 would do away with the current structure of public programs for the poor and the indigent that segregate low-income Americans into financially troubled programs. These programs generally deliver lower quality health care and struggle to meet their obligations. S. 334 would eliminate Medicaid and SCHIP and mainstream these populations into the same new system designed for the rest of their fellow citizens.
    The bill would also extend special protections for these populations by limiting expenses and providing them with additional benefits and services.
    Comment: In principle, this is good health care policy, but the legislation should be further refined. Financial assistance for low-income populations should be direct and transparent, and any additional services should be based on a specific health need, not merely on income. Ideally, the Medicaid and SCHIP programs should be replaced with a system of direct subsidies (vouchers) that supplement a federal tax credit. Moreover, any additional benefits and services should be focused only on those in need, such as the chronically ill or disabled.
    Regulating Health Insurance. S. 334 would have the federal government standardize the entire insurance market. The federal government would decide, for example, which health plans are permitted for purchase. The bill would set as its standard benefits package the dominant health plan in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), the BlueCross BlueShield Plan. In 2007, the plan's estimated annual premium was $4,282 for an individual and $10,546 for a family.
    Comment: S. 334 would increase the role of individuals in the health care system by replacing the patchwork structure of public and employer-based coverage with a system of individual coverage, but it would do so in a way that would actually reduce personal choice and weaken real competition. Instead of fostering a consumer-based market driven by the forces of supply and demand in which where suppliers develop products based on the demands of their customers, the bill would put in place a regulatory regime to control the supply of health insurance products.
    Many Americans, particularly the young and the uninsured, would consider the federally designated standard plan to be overly expensive and comprehensive, for it is marketed to a federal workforce and retiree population that are comparatively older and financially better off.
    While S. 334 would permit an "actuarial equivalent" option for the standard benefits package, the federal government would still be in the unprecedented position of dictating the overall value of the health plan available to Americans in every part of the country. In other words, no private health plan could offer a benefit package that would not meet the average cost of the BlueCross BlueShield Plan.
    The dependence on standardization as a means to drive down costs completely rejects the fundamental market principle that open competition produces better quality at lower prices. Moreover, such standardization undermines personal choice and market innovation. A better policy would enable insurers to design and develop products that meet the demands of the consumer and compete directly for customers based on the quality and price of those products.
    Imposing Federal Mandates. S. 334 establishes a series of "shared responsibility" provisions. These new responsibilities are best described as mandates. First, the bill would put in place a requirement for individuals to purchase coverage under this new system. The coverage, as described earlier, is set and controlled by the federal government and offers no real choice for individuals to pick a plan that best suits their needs. The purchase of this coverage is enforced through the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Under the bill, the IRS would automatically deduct an individual's share of the premium.
    S. 334 would also require employers to pay into this new system. Currently, employers voluntarily decide to provide and contribute to their employees' health insurance. The bill would set in place an employer payment schedule based on the number of employees, employer revenue, and an average plan premium. This amounts to a tax on employers to fund this new heath structure.
    In addition to standardizing insurance products, the bill would put in place a series of new benefit and regulatory requirements on insurers. These changes would further standardize insurance products, leaving little if any distinction between plan options, and would require insurers to meet new federal rules and definitions. Essentially, it would transfer authority over the regulation of health insurance from the states to the federal government.
    After defining, designing, and dictating the structure of a new health care system, the bill would pass the implementation and operation of this federal structure on to the states. Although there is a federal default mechanism, the assumption is that states would be the primary administrators for much of the bill. This would undermine state authority over health insurance.
    Comment. Instead of having the federal government force participation among stakeholders, a better approach would be to craft policies that directly empower individuals, employers, insurers, and states to help fix the health care system. A broader range of private coverage options and a fairer tax code would create the right incentives for individuals to purchase their own coverage, give employers more flexibility in funding coverage for their employees, offer insurers the ability to design innovative products, and encourage states to reform their health insurance markets in a market-oriented direction that reflects the unique circumstances and distinct differences of individual states.
    Conclusion
    Senators Wyden and Bennett and their co-sponsors should be commended for their willingness to put forth a comprehensive proposal to address the shortfalls in the current system, but the legislation needs significant changes if it is to be successful. The proposal's major problems are rooted in its sweeping and heavy-handed federal control over the insurance markets and its replacement of one tax inequity with another. Beyond these shortcomings are other unpleasant policy surprises such as the establishment of Medicare pricing over prescription drugs, permitting prescription drug reimportation, and even mandating that health insurers must cover abortion services.
    Senators Wyden and Bennett are not alone in recognizing that the status quo is unacceptable. Other lawmakers, such as Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) and Representative Tom Price (R-GA), have also introduced legislation that would reform the tax treatment of health insurance but without many of the problematic features of the Wyden-Bennett bill.
    Congress should seize this opportunity to engage in a bipartisan fashion to improve the health care system. Members should forge a coalition based on shared principles to push the debate forward on comprehensive health care reform.


    I agree that there are problems with this plan -- probably differant ones for both Democrats and Republicans. I agree that the Heritage critique on most of the points, but I am a bit of a conservative as well. The bill does keep the insurance process in private hands (even privatizes medicaid), but the requirment that all must purchase and that all plans must be approved by the government opens the plan for future mischief.

    I still think this is a better choice than either the current House or Senate plans on the table. This is why I support the idea that the compromise being pushed by the summit needs to start with a clean slate. Starting by the existing plans will never achieve by partisan support.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: White House - health summit

    I still think this is a better choice than either the current House or Senate plans on the table. This is why I support the idea that the compromise being pushed by the summit needs to start with a clean slate. Starting by the existing plans will never achieve by partisan support
    The Wyden-Bennett bill has always made the most fiscal sense, the problem is politically it is impossible because it is funded by removing the tax-exemption for health coverage. The Dem's had a hell of a time just trying to push the taxing of "Cadillac" plans even though it would effect a small percent of people, how do you sell taxing everyones health insurance? Economically its a no brainer as it gets rid of a perverse incentive that funnels money into the healthcare industry, and it would provide a mountain of funds to reform the subsidy side of things (even at 10% it would provide ~100 Billion a year, and the current bills only cost ~80 Billion a year).

    But in the end, something as drastic as Wyden-Bennett is never going to get passed, something more modest is needed for now. Though really, the current bills are a baby-step approach to Wyden-Bennett; some taxing of health coverage, some regulation of health plans, an individual mandate, some simplifying of subsidies.
    Last edited by Sphere; February 13, 2010 at 02:54 AM.

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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    But in the end, something as drastic as Wyden-Bennett is never going to get passed, something more modest is needed for now. Though really, the current bills are a baby-step approach to Wyden-Bennett; some taxing of health coverage, some regulation of health plans, an individual mandate, some simplifying of subsidies.
    The problem is that the current bills take only the pieces of W-B that the left likes. I do not think the political calculation was to even get a piece of legislation to the president to sign. Comprehensive reform is a formula for a pile of whoopie, campaign contributions for politicians taking extreme positions, and no legislation.

    Reform must start with what both sides find as common ground. Take it a step at a time. Heck -- if all the 'reform' accomplishes is to privatize medicare, make all plans portable by being personal accounts and not employer accounts, make all plans national in scope so individual state mandates cannot push up the premium price, eliminate the flaw of cherry picking with the current concept of an employed family member needed to be eligible for a group policy -- we would be light years ahead of where we are now.

    You can even keep the tax exemption in place as long as there is some cap tied to individual dependants on the individual tax returns. This does not matter in the scheme of things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
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  12. #12

    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Take it a step at a time. Heck -- if all the 'reform' accomplishes is to privatize medicare,

    and make even more people victims of Recison of care and corporate greed? Thats not reform, thats barbarity, actually the republicans would love it, more deaths of low earning americans, more kickbacks and more corruption.

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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    and make even more people victims of Recison of care and corporate greed? Thats not reform, thats barbarity, actually the republicans would love it, more deaths of low earning americans, more kickbacks and more corruption.
    Do you realize the biggest problem with the current system of medicaid is that it encourages poor utilization of standard medical clinics? Food stamps are now a debit card from VISA or Mastercard that can be used in a grocery store. Why not do the same with medicaid? Privitization means using a card to access a Kaiser health maintenance clinic rather than plopping into the waiting list at the local hospital emergancy room. Privitization means encouraging the parent to send the child to the doctor for annual check ups rather than waiting for 105 degree fever to go into the emergancy room.

    I sincerely doubt that there is a single person that wishes death on low earning people. Perhaps you should consider amended your post?

    Where are the kickbacks and corruption that you referred to in your post? How about an example or two rather than political rhetoric? Better yet -- how about an academic study that shows the private sector creates greater deaths than government run systems. I know that locally in Denver Colorado -- the government owned clincs have closed down for the most part over a decade or so ago because they were less effective at serving the neighborhoods than the private sector clinics and doctors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Universal Health Care means encouraging the parent to send the child to the doctor for annual check ups rather than waiting for 105 degree fever to go into the emergancy room.
    I fixed your typo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    I sincerely doubt that there is a single person that wishes death on low earning people. Perhaps you should consider amended your post?
    Your doubt is misplaced. Plenty of people would cheerfully let those people suffer if it meant keeping thier own taxes low.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Better yet -- how about an academic study that shows the private sector creates greater deaths than government run systems.
    The fact that Americans live shorter lives and have higher infant mortality than every other first world country on earth is so widely accepted that even the libertarians don't deny it.



  15. #15

    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Do you realize the biggest problem with the current system of medicaid is that it encourages poor utilization of standard medical clinics? Food stamps are now a debit card from VISA or Mastercard that can be used in a grocery store. Why not do the same with medicaid? Privitization means using a card to access a Kaiser health maintenance clinic rather than plopping into the waiting list at the local hospital emergancy room. Privitization means encouraging the parent to send the child to the doctor for annual check ups rather than waiting for 105 degree fever to go into the emergancy room.

    I sincerely doubt that there is a single person that wishes death on low earning people. Perhaps you should consider amended your post?

    Where are the kickbacks and corruption that you referred to in your post? How about an example or two rather than political rhetoric? Better yet -- how about an academic study that shows the private sector creates greater deaths than government run systems. I know that locally in Denver Colorado -- the government owned clincs have closed down for the most part over a decade or so ago because they were less effective at serving the neighborhoods than the private sector clinics and doctors.

    Recison of care covers all of that tho it should be more properly called murder.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: White House - health summit


  17. #17

    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Yes a lecture on partisanship on an issue by a man who ranks among the top in congress of being in the back pocket of the pharmaceutical companies. Talk about zero credibility.

    Justicar your missing the point... Republicans only want to restart the bill negotiations so time can be wasted and stalled until the 2010 elections so they can then complain to voters that the democrats did nothing while in power.
    Yes Im sure that is the only reason, that no one actually thinks it is a horrible bill or anything......even if that WAS the only goal by the GOP Id applaud them because of the nature of this stupid, expensive do nothing pile of fecal matter called health care reform bill.

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    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    Yes a lecture on partisanship on an issue by a man who ranks among the top in congress of being in the back pocket of the pharmaceutical companies. Talk about zero credibility.



    Yes Im sure that is the only reason, that no one actually thinks it is a horrible bill or anything......even if that WAS the only goal by the GOP Id applaud them because of the nature of this stupid, expensive do nothing pile of fecal matter called health care reform bill.
    The GOP already managed to succeed in throwing out the public option and a number of other liberal ideas. What we have left are moderate reform plans that even conservative members of congress would vote on if the president wasnt a democrat.

    Face it, this is political strategy, delay and stall so you can win more seats next election.

  19. #19

    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    The GOP already managed to succeed in throwing out the public option and a number of other liberal ideas. What we have left are moderate reform plans that even conservative members of congress would vote on if the president wasnt a democrat.

    Face it, this is political strategy, delay and stall so you can win more seats next election.
    I could care less their motives and more concerned with a good bill which we will never get thanks to both idiot parties but in the absences of passing this and doing nothing, Ill pick nothing....its cheaper.

    I was being Sarcastic, obviously that number is quite low.


    Obama does not want to use the nuclear option, we could use it but it would give political ammo to the conservatives.
    If I was a dem I wouldnt really be concerned by the conseratives and ammo but much more concerned about THIS http://www.pollingreport.com/health.htm
    Last edited by danzig; February 26, 2010 at 02:19 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: White House - health summit

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post

    Yes Im sure that is the only reason, that no one actually thinks it is a horrible bill or anything......even if that WAS the only goal by the GOP Id applaud them because of the nature of this stupid, expensive do nothing pile of fecal matter called health care reform bill.

    hey theu blocked any real reform whils screaming about communist traitors....

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