Pontic Campaign

[Revan The Great]

Here is my H/H, 0-turn recruitment campaign as Pontus. Some of you may remember a screenshot from an earlier campaign that I posted, but unfortunately I lost that one because apparently autosave wasn't on and I forgot to save it. Oh well. This is a brand new one, started today. I'll continue it at least through tomorrow, depending on how things develop.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The year is 551 AUC, and Sparta was just eliminated as a faction through a combined effort of the Greeks and the Ptolemies at Sparta and Crete respectively. I apologize for the zoomed-in minimap in the shot, as I didn't realize it wasn't zoomed out when I took the picture - I'll be sure to update with a full-bodied shot.

As you can notice I've already started to make the Black Sea into Pontus' own Mare Nostrum, where my naval superiority remained unchallenged, and a brief war as driven the Greeks out of the Bosphorus, and the combined efforts of myself and my ally Pergamum have thrown them from Asia Minor altogether. Currently I am also allied with Armenia, and as both factions have been trustworthy so far I have little fear for my heartlands.

You can see on the mini-map that Parthia had already inched into having a border with Armenia and, oddly, seems to have somehow received Palmyra. I wonder if Palmyra rebelled to the Parthians? This probably shouldn't be the case, but for all I know they bribed is all just conjecture. Also, glance in the upper left corner of the mini-map to see a little splotch of red among the Boii. Looks like Roman diplomats have been busy!

Currently I'm very excited to see if a three way 'Steppe War' will ignite between Sarmatian and Scythia and myself, possibly even with Dacia or Armenia as a fourth combatant. I have hopes of eventually annexing the coastal provinces of Scythia. I'm also interested to see what will happen with Parthia, given its apparently rapidly expansion - who knows, perhaps me and my Armenian allies will be fighting a war in the Caucuses? Only time will tell. Lot's of interesting possibilities ahead.

My Impressions of Pontus, as it is in revision 1016-ish.

• Still probably makes too much money. Maybe I'll eat those words in a few turns, but it's clear that Pontus' economy is by no means weak.
• Pontus really lacks what I would consider an 'Infantry of the Line' soldier, equivalent to Macedonian Bottian Phalanxes, or Roman Polybian Cohorts, or Carthaginian Libyan Spearmen (Late and Early). Chalkaspides are Elite Phalangitai, and Pontic Elite Thoritikai and Thoritikai Hoplites are, well, elite. And I don't consider regular Thoritikai or Theurophoroi to be the 'line soldiers' I'm thinking of - as both historically and as far as my battles go they occupy a 'flanker' or 'reservist' unit in the line. What I'm really looking for is a 'Katoikoi Phalangite' or something equivalent for Pontus, to bridge the gap between their crappy 'Levy Pikemen' and their decidedly-not-crappy 'Chalkaspides'.
• Levy Pikemen are of poor quality, but Chalkaspides are very good, reliable troops that are a great addition to any army and also easily recruited (at a level three barracks - you should consider moving them up to a level four barracks, perhaps). However, I feel a little silly including one or two Chalkaspides units in every army when I don't have the other, medium-quality phalangites to fill at the five or six unit-wide pike-line that any phalanx-based army should have. Which brings me to my final point...
• I can't figure out how to recruit Machairaphoroi as Pontus, either the armored or unarmored version (For those who don't know, these are the 'imitation legions'), and I feel that they could serve as line troops, but without them I'm forced to either pretend that a dozen Thoritikai make a believable core of an army, or rely on a short line of phalangites filled in by a miscellany of armored units designed for flanking, ambushes, or assaults rather than standing still and taking punishment while other forces flank. If you're supposed to wait for the Imperial Reforms then firstly I don't like that, and secondly Pergamum doesn't have to wait. Is there something bugged with recruitment?

[tone]

the other option would be that Chalkispides become a medium level unit and the elite forces are served by elite thorakitai and some of the cavalry units.

The machairaphoroi are linked to the Roman marian reforms.

It's a good thought about the katoikoi phalangites - will have to see what can be done here.

[dvk901]

I've added the 'Allied Phalangite' to Pontus' roster in the Main Campaign, but I've also created a modfolder for them as well that will be uploaded soon.

[torzsoktamas]

When I played a Pergamon campaign earlier,..the machairaphoroi and its epilaektoi apeared just in the final baracks,as a sing of "reform".

[Revan The Great]

the other option would be that Chalkispides become a medium level unit and the elite forces are served by elite thorakitai and some of the cavalry units.

I don't really like that idea - the Chalkispides are the Elite Phalangites, and look it too. Red capes with gold trim, bronze scale-mail reinforcing their linthorax, they look more like Agyraspides and Kleurchoi Agema. I really strongly advocate adding a Katoikoi Phalangite to the Pontic unit roster, even if it means deleting some obscure other unit ('Baltic Infantry, anyone?). For now I'll be happy with the Allied Phalangite addition that DVK mentioned, but I really only think of it as a 'placeholder'.

The machairaphoroi are linked to the Roman marian reforms.

Also don't like this. Both because Pergamum and if I recall the Ptolemies don't have to wait for Marian reforms to create their own Machairaphoroi, and also because at least one, and if I'm not mistaken two of the Mithridatic Wars were fought with Polybian legionaries. Certainly you also should consider that this games Marian reforms are infact 'Imperial Reforms', which would suggest that Pontus waited until the Principate to establish its immitation legions. I suggest that any faction with Machairaphoroi currently linked to Roman reforms (Macedon, Seleucids, Pontus, maybe others?), should have their recruitment enabled at the start of the game, like Pergamum and Ptolemies.

It's a good thought about the katoikoi phalangites - will have to see what can be done here.

Cool.

One last thing that I've been wondering about. When you play a Hellenic Faction it seems that around the third or fourth barracks you begin to be able to recruit Thoritikai, but lose the ability to recruit Thuerophoroi in that settlement. Is this because of recruitment queue CTD considerations? If not then I think that Thuerophoroi should be enabled throughout the barracks chain from level 2 up to level 5 because historically Thoritikai didn't 'replace' Thuerophoroi, they occupied a similar, mutually supportive, but different role in the battle line.

[tone]

Allied phalangites on their way for Pontus, hopefully they will do?

[Revan The Great]

For now...[/cryptic]

I guess they'll have to do. Is there any chance of a Katoikoi Phalangite being added to Pontus' roster in the future? Perhaps in another version, released later?

[torzsoktamas]

For now...[/cryptic]

I guess they'll have to do. Is there any chance of a Katoikoi Phalangite being added to Pontus' roster in the future? Perhaps in another version, released later?

If I remember well,the allied phalangites are at the same strenght as the katoikoi ones,...and are quite good.

[dvk901]

Also don't like this. Both because Pergamum and if I recall the Ptolemies don't have to wait for Marian reforms to create their own Machairaphoroi, and also because at least one, and if I'm not mistaken two of the Mithridatic Wars were fought with Polybian legionaries. Certainly you also should consider that this games Marian reforms are infact 'Imperial Reforms', which would suggest that Pontus waited until the Principate to establish its immitation legions. I suggest that any faction with Machairaphoroi currently linked to Roman reforms (Macedon, Seleucids, Pontus, maybe others?), should have their recruitment enabled at the start of the game, like Pergamum and Ptolemies.

One last thing that I've been wondering about. When you play a Hellenic Faction it seems that around the third or fourth barracks you begin to be able to recruit Thoritikai, but lose the ability to recruit Thuerophoroi in that settlement. Is this because of recruitment queue CTD considerations? If not then I think that Thuerophoroi should be enabled throughout the barracks chain from level 2 up to level 5 because historically Thoritikai didn't 'replace' Thuerophoroi, they occupied a similar, mutually supportive, but different role in the battle line.

For now...[/cryptic]

I guess they'll have to do. Is there any chance of a Katoikoi Phalangite being added to Pontus' roster in the future? Perhaps in another version, released later?

The very 'fact' that we allowed Pontus, Macedon and Sparta to even have the Machairaphoroi at all is a bit of 'historical license'. It is known that the Ptolemies, Seleucid and Pergamon used these units....it is NOT known or recorded anywhere we could find that anyone else did. I felt that, for balance reasons, all of the Greek factions should have them, but for these, since the situation is purely hypothetical, we tied them to the Reforms as a means of saying that 'at least' by that time, the writing would be on the wall for these nations (if they still existed), and they would start converting to the Roman way. So they have them as a compromise, and recruit them as a hypothetical gesture.

The 'que challenged' factions.....mainly all of the Successor states and Pergamon (I think), start losing units from recruitment at the 4th barracks level. That's because they all have 25-26 units in their ques at that point....the limit is 32. This allows a 'cushion' for any AOR units that may pop up in various places if you build the Mercenary building. Also, this is actually part of the overall vision that not every city should be proceeding to the Elite barracks........thus, it is tied in with the Economic\Fortified city scheme, where an Economic City will only allow a 3rd level barracks. So the Greeks in the modfoldered campaigns have a bit more of a challenge in this respect.

The Katoikoi Phalangite and the units using that model, unfortunately, are all very unique. It would require generalizing a unit...which we don't want to do, or creating a NEW unit, which we can't do. So the 'Allied Phalangite' was the best we could come up with. This change should be save game compatible.

[Revan The Great]

You may be correct, it just feels odd having 'Allies' make up the main battle-line of your force.

Are the Allied Phalangite's addition save-game compatible by chance?

[torzsoktamas]

You may be correct, it just feels odd having 'Allies' make up the main battle-line of your force.

Are the Allied Phalangite's addition save-game compatible by chance?

yes,it may sound wierd,..but Pontus is a hellenistic state in upper Anatolia where the eastern culture is more dominant.
And the greeks most probably would have formed the elite,while the foreigners(allies) formed the rest of the army.

[Revan The Great]

The very 'fact' that we allowed Pontus, Macedon and Sparta to even have the Machairaphoroi at all is a bit of 'historical license'. It is known that the Ptolemies, Seleucid and Pergamon used these units....it is NOT known or recorded anywhere we could find that anyone else did. I felt that, for balance reasons, all of the Greek factions should have them, but for these, since the situation is purely hypothetical, we tied them to the Reforms as a means of saying that 'at least' by that time, the writing would be on the wall for these nations (if they still existed), and they would start converting to the Roman way. So they have them as a compromise, and recruit them as a hypothetical gesture.

Sure Macedon and Sparta are a bit of a hypothetical when it comes to Machairaphoroi, but Pontus certainly isn't. Indeed, they along with the Ptolemies and Numidia are the ones best known for their Imitation Legionaires.

From http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=12084

Mithridates VI, the primary enemy of Rome in the Mithridatic Wars, also used troops the Romans called ‘imitation legionaries’. Battlefield failure against the armies of Rome in the Second Mithridatic War prompted the Pontic monarch to radically change his army. His phalangitai battalions were relegated to a lesser position, their place taken by Pontic thorakitai. Roman authors took this to mean that Mithridates was copying the Roman method. While Rome’s success did spark the almost total replacement of the phalangitai as Pontos’ primary line infantry the actual troops themselves already existed prior to contact with Rome. Mithridates’ primary reforms increased their numbers and the quality of their training (including possibly the adoption of scale armor) but it proved for naught. The Pontic thorakitai, while giving a good account in battle, ultimately were defeated by Rome.

If we take 'Thorakitai' to mean a type of armoured but mobile infantry who did not require a rigid formation to be effective in combat, then we can certainly apply that to Machairaphoroi. Afterall, historical Thorakitai were armed with a sword as well as a thrusting spear (sometimes just one or the other), so in a way you could almost abstract a Machairaphoroi Thorakitai to be a 'Thorakitai who left his spear in camp and is fighting with his sword'. As the article I linked above states, the kind of soldiers that wore chainmail and moved in a tactically flexible way (i.e. Thorakitai, Machairaphoroi) had existed for a long time before the Mithridatic Wars. Other mods represent Pontic 'Imitation Legions' long before their Imperial, or sometimes even Marian reforms - not the least of them being Europa Barbarorum, noted for its historical accuracy.

[dvk901]

Sure Macedon and Sparta are a bit of a hypothetical when it comes to Machairaphoroi, but Pontus certainly isn't. Indeed, they along with the Ptolemies and Numidia are the ones best known for their Imitation Legionaires.

From http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=12084


If we take 'Thorakitai' to mean a type of armoured but mobile infantry who did not require a rigid formation to be effective in combat, then we can certainly apply that to Machairaphoroi. Afterall, historical Thorakitai were armed with a sword as well as a thrusting spear (sometimes just one or the other), so in a way you could almost abstract a Machairaphoroi Thorakitai to be a 'Thorakitai who left his spear in camp and is fighting with his sword'. As the article I linked above states, the kind of soldiers that wore chainmail and moved in a tactically flexible way (i.e. Thorakitai, Machairaphoroi) had existed for a long time before the Mithridatic Wars. Other mods represent Pontic 'Imitation Legions' long before their Imperial, or sometimes even Marian reforms - not the least of them being Europa Barbarorum, noted for its historical accuracy.

Well, I'm chewing on that a bit...choking a bit here and there...but I would like to say something here.
I have no criticism of EB whatsoever in their historical content......but a long, looooong time ago there were implications that we were 'copying them' or using their research in place of our own. I resented that a bit, because at the time I hadn't even SEEN the thing, so there was no way it was being copied into anything we were doing. But, as a team, from then on, we decided that EVERYTHING we did would be on our own, found and approved on the basis of it's own merit or our naivety if that be the case....but ours nonetheless. So the fact that EB did something means absolutely nothing to me. I have not seen any of their building descriptions, unit descriptions, and understood even less what I saw in their code. LOL.

Don't get me wrong, I respect them. It's just that we don't use them as a guide. So when we discuss units like this, we come up with our own validation, quotes, references, etc...and decide on what we found, not others. Now, that 'wildfiregames' site you refer to also mentions that the Parthians, for heaven's sake, used Imitation Legionaries! I did a lot of research myself, and I know others did, into the Parthian military....and never found any such reference until 'maybe' the Late Roman Empire. So I wonder whether that site is just 'theorizing' or has actual evidence found somewhere. Because that's a real stretch when the most known about the Parthian military of this era was written by Romans.

So 'convince me', argue me into it, plead your case...I'm an open person...but don't tell me 'EB did it' as justification.

[tone]

Any thoughts on a shield for this allied phalangite unit?

I wonder about something like this?

[torzsoktamas]

Thats good for me Tone,..that would look good for a shield.

[Revan The Great]

I think it looks good...kind of like a man's face with a lion's mane, which is probably something Pontus would use. Mithridates had a bit of a lion fetish if I recall. Anyways...campaign update!

I've advanced a few years from my previous update, and have begun to utilize Allied Phalangites, and I've decided to highlight a particular battle which lasted half an hour for me purely for entertainment's sake and battle mechanics, in addition to glossing quickly over my strat-map machinations.

The Siege of Satala
King Pharnaces arrived at Satala with the intent to annex 'Armenia Minor' into his growing kingdom, but because of it's mineral wealth and to begin forming a cushion of provinces to the South and East of his capital, fearing Seleucid or some other nation's aggression. He brings siege engines to the battle, as well as several experienced contingents of archers, and from his advantageous and elevated place just outside the city wall he begins to rain death into the city.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This portion of the battle was particularly amusing because it felt like I was actually conducting a real siege, with archery and artillery bolts being flung into the city. We knocked down the gate and a few portions of the walls, and set fire to the Governor's palace in the process, all the while the enemies' numerous forces were scrambling around getting picked off by my ranged units since they had so many men clustered into such a small city. Probably 20-30% of the enemy had been killed by the time I finally ran out of ammunition, but it felt 'fun' and 'right', softening up the enemy like that.

Just as the last of the artillery shells are running dry the Pontic Assault Troops move forward to take advantage of the enemies' withdrawl from the walls to the city center. In their fear of being struck by flame and dart they have made it easy to establish a foothold within their city, and we took advantage of it to quickly send in our heavily armored Thorakitai.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They barely have time to raise their weapons before the enemy charge towards the breaches from as many directions as they can muster. the Pontic Hoplites doggedly hold the line, fighting shoulder to shoulder with the King's own Elite Thorakitai.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This fighting is particularly bloody and brutal, but ill suited to Phalangites, so the Thorakitai are mostly left to their own devices with cover fire from mounted archers just outside the wall, and five-hundred of Pontus' finest strive against two-thousand Satalan Armenians. Until...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pharnaces finally commits his Chalkaspides, who are able to break the last of the outer defensive lines now that the Satalan's have tired, and finally the Thorakitai are relieved and allowed to retire, much reduced but unbowed and triumphant.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There is some remaining fighting throughout the city - King Pharnaces himself rides in to do battle with enemy stragglers outside the city square while his elite phalangites assault the city center and eventually triumph over the Satalans.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Campaign

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here is an updated picture of my campaign. I'm a bit worried about the congregation of Armenian soldiers right outside of Satala but we'll see what develops. Currently I'm at war with no one, having secured a peace treaty with the Greek Cities, as well as alliances with Pergamum and Armenia (oddly enough, the Cimbri as well), as well as trade rights with the Scythians and Sarmatians. Parthia is continually pushing the Seleucids back, and I fear that they'll be eliminated within ten years. Nothing else is particularly interesting about the AI progression except for the Roman's unnatural interest in Central Europe, and if I'm not mistaken they're at war with the Boii.

As for what my next move is, I'm undecided. I have my eye on Cappadocia, but I'm tempered by two constraints: I don't want to expand too far too fast. I'd prefer to remain a 'medium' and 'regional' power for quite some time yet, rather than an over-sized Empire. Secondly, I also don't really want to be an aggressor in a war. My immediate neighbors are my allies, but a Total War with either Pergamum or Armenia or both would end up with either faction destroyed and me getting the 'Largest Faction' message in short order. I also don't want to go to war with Scythia or Sarmatia because I really don't have any interest in advancing into the Steppe and claiming a nomadic empire of vast empty spaces and little else. All and all I'm hoping for a defensive war of some sort soon! So right now I'm pretty much just building up my cities and military whilst contemplating my vast treasury. Any suggestions of what to do would be welcome. I already have a rough of idea of what a Pontic-Asia Minor would entail, I just don't want to reach for that quite yet.

Something that the mod developers should take away from this post however, is the fact that I don't have any further enlightened criticisms on unit balance, or anything else of note to complain about or point out like I usually do. You should take that as a sign that the mod is very much almost complete, and though I'm sure you guys already know it, you now have an outside source, and beta tester telling you that he's running out of things that he can find wrong. Well done. I'll keep playing my campaign and, with luck, I can make it far enough to test things like Roman Reforms, etc.

[Revan The Great]

Well, I'm chewing on that a bit...choking a bit here and there...but I would like to say something here.
I have no criticism of EB whatsoever in their historical content......but a long, looooong time ago there were implications that we were 'copying them' or using their research in place of our own. I resented that a bit, because at the time I hadn't even SEEN the thing, so there was no way it was being copied into anything we were doing. But, as a team, from then on, we decided that EVERYTHING we did would be on our own, found and approved on the basis of it's own merit or our naivety if that be the case....but ours nonetheless. So the fact that EB did something means absolutely nothing to me. I have not seen any of their building descriptions, unit descriptions, and understood even less what I saw in their code. LOL.

Fair enough, I suppose. Though anyone who thinks you're copying EB is a bit of a moron.

Now, that 'wildfiregames' site you refer to also mentions that the Parthians, for heaven's sake, used Imitation Legionaries! I did a lot of research myself, and I know others did, into the Parthian military....and never found any such reference until 'maybe' the Late Roman Empire. So I wonder whether that site is just 'theorizing' or has actual evidence found somewhere. Because that's a real stretch when the most known about the Parthian military of this era was written by Romans.

The Parthians did use imitation legionaries, at least according to Roman eyes. They were lightly armed though, and lightly armored - nothing like the heavy infantry of the Romans. In all actuality the term 'Imitation Legion' is applied to these soldiers out of ignorance of the Romans. I'm not even sure that they fought the Romans, at least not for quite a time after this mod's timeframe. Mostly they were used as garrison soldiers, as I recall.

So 'convince me', argue me into it, plead your case...I'm an open person...but don't tell me 'EB did it' as justification.

Well EB did it, but so did FRRE, Rome: Total Realism, and any number of other reputable mods. I just mention EB because, local prejudices aside, they're noted for their historical accuracy and research powers. To myself, and probably 90% of the rest of your fanbase, 'EB thinks this existed' means more than 'Rome: Total Realism thinks this existed.' Even so, I didn't really think that Pontic Imitation Legions was anything less than accepted fact, *blink*, the resistance on this is quite unexpected.

If nothing else, the very fact that Pergamum has Machairaphoroi from the beginning of the game seems enough evidence that you consider Rome to have had enough influence in Asia Minor to influence the Pergamese, who at this time had just begun to ally with the Romans in response to Macedonian aggression historically, to change their military. Given that Pontus is only a few hundred miles away and almost inevitably in conflict with the faction of Pergamum I don't see how it's so unbelievable that they'd see Pergamum's Machairaphoroi, and think that their 'Roman-style' tactics sound effective. Whether Pontic Machairaphoroi are 'Roman Imitations' or 'Imitations of Roman Imitations' from Pergamum, it's silly to say that Pontus would develop these troops a hundred years after Pergamum when the two nations are in such close proximity to one another, with such potential for armed conflict.

[dvk901]

Ok, I have removed the limitation from them.

You wouldn't be Cherryfunk using a different user name, would you?

[Revan The Great]

No, though I have noticed that this Cherryfunk person has the distinction of being quoted in one of the loading screens, lol.

May I ask why you would say such a thing? I must be sort of like him, but I'm not sure whether that's good or bad x_x

[dvk901]

No, though I have noticed that this Cherryfunk person has the distinction of being quoted in one of the loading screens, lol.

May I ask why you would say such a thing? I must be sort of like him, but I'm not sure whether that's good or bad x_x

Cherryfunk was my 'devils advocate', and we had many a heated but always friendly discussion. I miss him.
You're doing fine filling in. LOL