Help Me Understand American Conservatism

[Jabberwock]

I have reason to believe the majority who call themselves conservative aren't real conservatives. Those who portray moderate politics within the GOP (or progressive GOP members) are the real conservatives, IMO.

I believe the majority embodies conservatism on a superficial (i.e. non-intellectually) nature in a contrary manner:
"I'm against gay marriage and liberals are for it thus I'm conservative"
"I don't like socialism and liberals like it thus I'm conservative"
"I like low taxes thus I'm conservative"
etc.

I feel there is a lack of intellectual discourse (which I believe conservatism advocates) in whether conservatism is actually against or for any of these issues when such claims are made.

Is conservatism really against socialism, abortion, homosexuality, and gay marriage? If so, why?
Are low taxes always the right answer in conservatism?

Is conservationism really compatible with religion? (This question particularly interests me. American conservatism, from what I understand, seeks to embody the ideals and traditions set forth by the Founding Fathers. One of those ideals was the exclusion of religion in politics and government. On a social level many were also against religion. This is why I ask if religion really has a place in conservatism.)

Does conservatism only care about the individual and not the whole?
Is conservatism against social services?
Why can't conservatism contain progressive ideals? If so, is it socially, culturally, and technologically?
Is conservationism a proponent of boilerplate morality? If so, why?
Does conservatism promote understanding and tolerance?
Is conservatism really against anything and everything "leftist" or associated with the left? If so, why?
Is conservatism reactionary? Or is it really against it?
Is conservatism against government?
What is big government to conservatism? And what in that big government is conservatism actually against? Why?

I think that's it for now. Wherever I say conservatism, it's "American conservatism".

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Is conservationism really compatible with religion? (This question particularly interests me. American conservatism, from what I understand, seeks to embody the ideals and traditions set forth by the Founding Fathers. One of those ideals was the exclusion of religion in politics and government. On a social level many were also against religion. This is why I ask if religion really has a place in conservatism.)

The founders did not exclude religion from politics. They excluded the institution of religion (i.e. no state sponsored Church, like the Church of England), but not religious beliefs, or even religion in general. To say such is to be dishonest in the uttermost.

[Jabberwock]

The founders did not exclude religion from politics. They excluded the institution of religion (i.e. no state sponsored Church, like the Church of England), but not religious beliefs, or even religion in general. To say such is to be dishonest in the uttermost.

They didn't let religion influence their politics is what I meant.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

They didn't let religion influence their politics is what I meant.

Religion (or the lack thereof) influences your whole life. You cannot say that politics is not influenced by religion, since your view of the world is shaped by religion (or lack thereof).

[Jabberwock]

Religion (or the lack thereof) influences your whole life. You cannot say that politics is not influenced by religion, since your view of the world is shaped by religion (or lack thereof).

I thought I was quite clear, but obviously not. The term "religion" was in reference to organized religion. The FFs had religious beliefs or philosophical beliefs depending on who you ask. These beliefs (primarily Deism and liberal Christianity) established their principles and is quite evident in such documents as the DoI where Jefferson took to use Deistic jargon. So yes you're right, but that isn't what I meant.

I think it's important to expand that religious beliefs or lack off don't necessarily limit you to any side of the political spectrum.

It's entirely dependent on how "strong" you carry your religious beliefs and the said beliefs itself.

Real American conservatives in the sense of minimalist government

Is that all a real conservative is? Where does minimalist government come into conservatism? When does a government become minimalist to be beneficial to the country and all its citizens?

[BNS]

It's entirely dependent on how "strong" you carry your religious beliefs and the said beliefs itself.

A strong atheist can just as easily be an objectivist as a communist. Similarly a christian could just as well adhere liberation theology.

Is that all a real conservative is? Where does minimalist government come into conservatism? When does a government become minimalist to be beneficial to the country and all its citizens?

It is in the American sense. What we have to "conserve" here is the classical liberal tradition this country was founded on. Whether or not a minimalist government is better or not is a subject for another thread.

[43rdFoot]

American conservatism, like all modern American politics, is one big joke. Conservatives are the first to rail for wars overseas, the restriction of rights, and the abandonment of all the principles this country was founded to protect.

[Augment]

American conservatism, like all modern American politics, is one big joke. Conservatives are the first to rail for wars overseas, the restriction of rights, and the abandonment of all the principles this country was founded to protect.

'em.

Indeed, so true.

[removeduser_052420]

American conservatism, like all modern American politics, is one big joke. Conservatives are the first to rail for wars overseas, the restriction of rights, and the abandonment of all the principles this country was founded to protect.

'em.

So true. + rep

[Poach]

American conservatism, like all modern American politics, is one big joke.

Fixed.

[pchalk]

American conservatism, like all modern American politics, is one big joke. Conservatives are the first to rail for wars overseas, the restriction of rights, and the abandonment of all the principles this country was founded to protect.

'em.

well as OP is trying to define not all conservatives in the US are Neo-cons like the majority of the current US Republican party is. I consider myself a conservative in the states but not a Republican as it is defined today. one example is Ron Paul. it is important to realize that a conservative party may place an emphasis on social conservatism (no gay rights and all those other upholding tradtional moral values) and fiscal conservatism, which republican neo cons have sort of strayed away from. also the two party system isnt helpful either. there are no choices. i didnt vote last election cuz there wasnt any good candidate. as it is now aside from those outliers ( like ron paul or the few hardline leftists on the other side of the spectrum) the only difference between republicans and democrats are the social issues that I personally really dont care about. think about it what has obama done differently economically than bush. so 43rd foot in this light i can agree with u about modern american politics

[43rdFoot]

well as OP is trying to define not all conservatives in the US are Neo-cons like the majority of the current US Republican party is. I consider myself a conservative in the states but not a Republican as it is defined today. one example is Ron Paul. it is important to realize that a conservative party may place an emphasis on social conservatism (no gay rights and all those other upholding tradtional moral values) and fiscal conservatism, which republican neo cons have sort of strayed away from. also the two party system isnt helpful either. there are no choices. i didnt vote last election cuz there wasnt any good candidate. as it is now aside from those outliers ( like ron paul or the few hardline leftists on the other side of the spectrum) the only difference between republicans and democrats are the social issues that I personally really dont care about. think about it what has obama done differently economically than bush. so 43rd foot in this light i can agree with u about modern american politics

I wanted to point out Ron Paul in my post but, unfortunately, it is a fact that he is an outlier in a system that ignores him. He may be a Republican, but in name only.

[pchalk]

I wanted to point out Ron Paul in my post but, unfortunately, it is a fact that he is an outlier in a system that ignores him. He may be a Republican, but in name only.

yea it really disappointed me not that he didnt just do well but how literally he was ignored. news polls didnt even include him

[Phier]

American conservatism, like all modern American politics, is one big joke. Conservatives are the first to rail for wars overseas,

From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli...

If you don't know why I said that, you need to read more US history.

the restriction of rights,

In times of trouble, rights have been FAR more restricted. What many think of the greatest US president was one of the biggest 'villains' of rights, Abraham Lincoln. Whining about the Patriot act is so 2004.

and the abandonment of all the principles this country was founded to protect.

And which would those be and how did they destroy them all! This is a nonsense statement you made.

[Pickle_mole]

American conservatism, like all modern American politics, is one big joke. Conservatives are the first to rail for wars overseas, the restriction of rights, and the abandonment of all the principles this country was founded to protect.

'em.

what? completely simplistic and incorrect view, conservatism covers many aspects. You can be a social "conservative" and yet an economic "liberal", whats that called? theres too many aspects to ones political views to be say that all conservatives value the above.

[Phier]

You can be a social "conservative" and yet an economic "liberal", whats that called?

Utterly confused

[43rdFoot]

what? completely simplistic and incorrect view, conservatism covers many aspects. You can be a social "conservative" and yet an economic "liberal", whats that called? theres too many aspects to ones political views to be say that all conservatives value the above.

When I talk about COnservatives, I'm talking about the mainstream Conservatives; essentially the people who listen to the likes of Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and Rush Limbaugh and not think they're the biggest douchebags to ever live. The Tea-Partiers and the Birthers.

[removeduser_052420]

When I talk about COnservatives, I'm talking about the mainstream Conservatives; essentially the people who listen to the likes of Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and Rush Limbaugh and not think they're the biggest douchebags to ever live. The Tea-Partiers and the Birthers.

Don't forgot the people who believe that obama is a communist 'moslem'.

[Mr. Scott]

American conservatism, like all modern American politics, is one big joke. Conservatives are the first to rail for wars overseas, the restriction of rights, and the abandonment of all the principles this country was founded to protect.

'em.

Ummmm I think you're a bit off. You see here is a first hand view. American politics are....... democrats vs. republicans. Duking it out. Not a big joke, definitely not.


Conservatives are the opposite of what you say. They are the ones that want our freedoms, want free trade, want liberty, want to have the right to fail, do not rail to wars overseas but are more willing to go to war then the democrats, do not want to restrict rights.

Besides, you europeans (brits excluded) never go to war. You guys barely send anything to afghanistan...... It's kinda annoying how even when you guys do go to war, its the bare minimum. You guys can do better then that.... I mean its not like you have much to defend from or defend someone from.

Afghanistan would be so much easier if the europeans (brits excluded) would get off their arse and start sending some guys. I'm sorry france but a few thousand out of 600'000 is not a lot.

[43rdFoot]

Ummmm I think you're a bit off. You see here is a first hand view. American politics are....... democrats vs. republicans. Duking it out. Not a big joke, definitely not.


Conservatives are the opposite of what you say. They are the ones that want our freedoms, want free trade, want liberty, want to have the right to fail, do not rail to wars overseas but are more willing to go to war then the democrats, do not want to restrict rights.

Besides, you europeans (brits excluded) never go to war. You guys barely send anything to afghanistan...... It's kinda annoying how even when you guys do go to war, its the bare minimum. You guys can do better then that.... I mean its not like you have much to defend from or defend someone from.

Afghanistan would be so much easier if the europeans (brits excluded) would get off their arse and start sending some guys. I'm sorry france but a few thousand out of 600'000 is not a lot.

I live in New Jersey, dude. And yes, our politics is one big joke. Name one COnservative who cares anything at all about Liberty, or the downsizing of the state. Better yet, name one mainstream politician who you can honestly say tries his/her hardest to serve the people.

In other words, I want you to contemplate something. Say, for the sake of the question, that their needs to be a new Constitutional Convention. Name one mainstream politician you could send and honestly feel hopeful about a positive outcome. Scary thought, isn't it?


EDIT: Also, how is it that Europeans never wanting to go to war is bad thing?