Ostracism

[Athenogoras]

Was it a purely athenian institution? Or is it not possible to give a credible answer due to lack of sources from other cities?

Am trying to find out for a submod I am making

[Starlightman]

Was it a purely athenian institution? Or is it not possible to give a credible answer due to lack of sources from other cities?

Am trying to find out for a submod I am making

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism

http://www.sikyon.com/Athens/ahist_eg01.html

http://project.athens-agora.gr/index...=12&lang_id=en

[Athenogoras]

Thanks. I think I found my answer
from wiki:

Other cities are known to have set up forms of ostracism on the Athenian model, namely Megara, Miletos, Argos and Syracuse. In the last of these it was referred to as petalismos, because the names were written on olive leaves. Little is known about these institutions.

[Starlightman]

Thanks. I think I found my answer
from wiki:

Παρὰ γὰρ Ἀθηναίοις ἕκαστον τῶν πολιτῶν ἔδει γράφειν εἰς ὄστρακον τοὔνομα τοῦ δοκοῦντος μάλιστα δύνασθαι τυραννεῖν τῶν πολιτῶν, παρὰ δὲ τοῖς Συρακοσίοις εἰς πέταλον ἐλαίας γράφεσθαι τὸν δυνατώτατον τῶν πολιτῶν, διαριθμηθέντων δὲ τῶν πετάλων τὸν πλεῖστα πέταλα λαβόντα φεύγειν πενταετῆ χρόνον.
diodorus., historical library 11.87.1

in ancient Greek...about petalismos...

check also this...

http://www.jstor.org/pss/693412

[Manuel I Komnenos]

In fact every single city-state had a copy-paste government of either Sparta (oligarchy) or Athens(democracy).. So the characteristics of the Athenian democracy were the same for all democratic cities..

[Zenith Darksea]

In fact every single city-state had a copy-paste government of either Sparta (oligarchy) or Athens(democracy).. So the characteristics of the Athenian democracy were the same for all democratic cities..

Erm, 'copy-paste'? The existing evidence doesn't suggest that at all, nor does common sense. The point about Sparta is the most obvious, since most oligarchies were nothing like the Spartan one (for example, oligarchies generally didn't have kings, while Sparta did). As for Athenian democracy, while you might have a good case that some Athens' subject cities in its Arche were modelled on that style of government, you would hardly have a good case for saying that the democracy in Corinth or Argos was exactly the same, let alone in Syracuse.

[Athenogoras]

in ancient Greek

lol, the only greek I know are small phrases from my books(Homer, Thucydides, Xenophon:my favourite is Thalatta, Thalatta). I am pure barbarian
I was able to find an english translation of the quote though, thanks

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Of course it was copy-paste. And that's because Athens and Sparta were installing same governments like theirs in their allied cities. During the age of the Peloponisian war in each city there were two political powers. Usually the poor people wanted a democracy and Athens was helping them, while the rich wanted an oligarchy (it doesn't mean you have a king, just that the few (oligoi-ολιγοι) rule).. Even the kings of Sparta (Sparta always had two Kings at the same time) didn't have much power.. The rich and old members of the council decided what had to be done.

Also I don't think Syracuse ever had a democracy. They had almost all the time tyranny, not even oligarchy.. But at that time tyranny didn't have the mean it has today.. Most of Syracuse tyrants were good rulers and became very famous for victories against the Carthaginians(Ierwn, Dionysios, Agathoklis..)

[Hound of Ulster]

Syracuse was always a tyranny, if my readings are remembered correctly

[KaRoU23]

Syracuse was always a tyranny, if my readings are remembered correctly

Not exactly, in 345 BC there was a democratic system, founded by Timoleon.However with his death, another tyrant named Agathocles rose to the throne

[Zenith Darksea]

Of course it was copy-paste...

Not that I want to brag, but I have a degree in Classics from Oxford and have made a close study of the political history of fifth- and fourth-century Greece. You evidently don't have much more than a very loose grasp of the historical evidence. I think the fact that you don't even realise that Syracuse was a democracy from 466 to 412 B.C. - during which time it was at war with Athens and allied to Sparta - says it all, really.

[The Thespian]

Not that I want to brag, but I have a degree in Classics from Oxford and have made a close study of the political history of fifth- and fourth-century Greece. You evidently don't have much more than a very loose grasp of the historical evidence. I think the fact that you don't even realise that Syracuse was a democracy from 466 to 412 B.C. - during which time it was at war with Athens and allied to Sparta - says it all, really.

Hello mate, please try to be nice to people with limited amount of knowledge about certain things.
Even if you dont have a degree from Oxford does not mean you can use it to brag and try and make people feel small and insugnificant.

Although i would also like to congratulate you on your choise of degree because i did Ancient History at A.S and A2 and thouroughly enjoyed it. Especially the A2 year which was about 9th to 2nd century Greek History, especially the stuff on Thespiae!

[Manuel I Komnenos]

''Also I don't think Syracuse ever had a democracy.'' That's what I said, I wasn't 100% sure about that.. And you are right, I admit that I hadn't researched about the government of Syracuse at that time, but only about the war between Syracuse and Athens.. What matters most is that Syracuse had 22 tyrants during its history and this city's government is a very good example of tyranny.. The fact that I don't have a degree from Oxford doesn't mean that I haven't been studying history since I was 12 years old..

Also I think you tried to connect what I said about the allies of Spartans having the same government with them.. But things were much different in the Western Greek colonies.. There wasn't serious connection between those colonies and mainland Greece.. The Corinthians and the Spartans helped Syracuse just because they were all Dorians and they wanted to control the raising power of Athens..

[Seleucos of Olympia]

Not having a degree in something doesn't mean one is not well read on it, but having a degree in something means that one is well read on it by necessity. I don't see it as bragging when it is brought up in such a conversation, and I'm sure Zenith doesn't either (he said so in his first sentence...)

Anyway, Sparta's government was fundamentally different to the oligarchies of other Greek states, since it combined a dual monarchy with progressively larger decision making groups down to the homoioi citizens - who ruled over two distinct, and very different in their rights, classes of subject people, the perioikoi and the helots. Plato called it a "timocracy", differentiating it from monarchies and oligarchies. The only other government type that came close to it was the one used by the Thessalians (if I remember correctly). Although Athens exported democracy at that time, it would be simplistic and very misleading to assume that Sparta was exporting its own government system in a Cold War-like competition. Since oligarchic factions were the natural enemies of democratic factions in other cities, it made sense for them to turn to Sparta for help as a counterbalance to Athens.

[The Thespian]

Not having a degree in something doesn't mean one is not well read on it, but having a degree in something means that one is well read on it by necessity. I don't see it as bragging when it is brought up in such a conversation, and I'm sure Zenith doesn't either (he said so in his first sentence...)

Anyway, Sparta's government was fundamentally different to the oligarchies of other Greek states, since it combined a dual monarchy with progressively larger decision making groups down to the homoioi citizens - who ruled over two distinct, and very different in their rights, classes of subject people, the perioikoi and the helots. Plato called it a "timocracy", differentiating it from monarchies and oligarchies. The only other government type that came close to it was the one used by the Thessalians (if I remember correctly). Although Athens exported democracy at that time, it would be simplistic and very misleading to assume that Sparta was exporting its own government system in a Cold War-like competition. Since oligarchic factions were the natural enemies of democratic factions in other cities, it made sense for them to turn to Sparta for help as a counterbalance to Athens.

Sparta was an oligarchy, but it helped the Syracusans out because they were decendents of Dorians, just like the Spartans were and because Alkibiades had told them that Athens was attacking syracuse and therefore sent Gylippus to help them defeat the 2 athenian forces!

[Seleucos of Olympia]

Syracuse was a Corinthian colony, but I doubt Sparta helped it out of Dorian solidarity. Spartans were infamous for waging wars against their fellow Dorians (Messenians and Argives in particular) and history would soon prove that they were not above making deals with Persians against fellow Greeks...

[The Thespian]

Syracuse was a Corinthian colony, but I doubt Sparta helped it out of Dorian solidarity. Spartans were infamous for waging wars against their fellow Dorians (Messenians and Argives in particular) and history would soon prove that they were not above making deals with Persians against fellow Greeks...

You blasphemer!!!!

The messenians were not Dorians and neither were the argives=the messenians were the greeks that were there before the Spartans, the argives where what was left of the mycenians undera different name

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Sparta was an oligarchy like the other oligarchies with slight differences like having 2 kings as I said before, but it wasn't the Kings who were ruling the City.. The council of Sparta decided about every move.. Even Leonidas was sent to Thermopylae, he didn't go there by himself..

[Seleucos of Olympia]

The Spartan political system had strong oligarchic elements, but was otherwise unique. For instance, if the two kings were in agreement, they could make decisions independent of the Ephors - the latter's votes only mattered if the two kings disagreed (which was pretty much all the time).

Would you say that Rome had the same government system as Athens? They were both 'democracies'...

[The Thespian]

The Spartan political system had strong oligarchic elements, but was otherwise unique. For instance, if the two kings were in agreement, they could make decisions independent of the Ephors - the latter's votes only mattered if the two kings disagreed (which was pretty much all the time).

Would you say that Rome had the same government system as Athens? They were both 'democracies'...

ery athens was not rweally a democracy!
Sparta was a dual oligarchy=because of the kings

also rome had two consuls wich were based on th two kings of Sparta,lol