Personal Religious Symbols

[Djûn]

In going through my daily (or rather nightly, it seems now) trawling of news sites, I came across this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8500712.stm

Sir Mota Singh QC mentions the case of a 14-year-old boy who tried to wear his Kirpan (a ceremonial knife central to Sikhism, about five inches in length) into school but was turned away by the Headmaster. To summarise the case briefly, the school had offered to allow him to use a Kirpan of two inches in length which was to be welded into its sheath, but this was rejected by the boy (and his parents) in stating that it was simply a replica, and not a true Kirpan. Evidently the school was worried that the Kirpan may pose a risk to other students as it is, in essence, a weapon - although not designed to be used as such per se.

I will try to keep my own opinion silent for the moment, but would like to know those of other TWC posters:
- Firstly, should the boy be allowed a Kirpan in school, and if so what conditions should apply to it (such as the proposed size or ability to unsheath it)?
- Secondly, are there any other situations in which you think a Sikh should be disallowed a Kirpan (such as public venues or transport)?
- Finally, do you think that students should be allowed to wear any kind of religious symbols in school, and if so should certain ones be permitted under certain conditions (such as concealment)?

[Nikos]

- Firstly, should the boy be allowed a Kirpan in school, and if so what conditions should apply to it (such as the proposed size or ability to unsheath it)?

Absolutely not, it's a danger to himself and other students. What happens if another student grabs it and injures the boy or another student?

- Secondly, are there any other situations in which you think a Sikh should be disallowed a Kirpan (such as public venues or transport)?

Yes, on airlines, buses, trains and any other form of public transportation.

- Finally, do you think that students should be allowed to wear any kind of religious symbols in school, and if so should certain ones be permitted under certain conditions (such as concealment)?

You should be allowed to wear religious symbols in your school, but not if they pose a danger to yourself or other students. Religious symbol or not, no student should be carrying a 5 inch knife around while in school. It has nothing to do with tolerance or intolerance, it's a matter of safety.

[Djûn]

Thank you Nikos for your swift reply. Allow me, if you will, to ask you a few follow-up questions, perhaps to add another layer of consideration into the problem.

Absolutely not, it's a danger to himself and other students. What happens if another student grabs it and injures the boy or another student?

So were the knife welded into its sheath as suggested, would you permit it in your school, assuming you were to play the role of the Headmaster?

Yes, on airlines, buses, trains and any other form of public transportation.

What would you think about someone bringing one into, say, a courthouse or a hospital?

You should be allowed to wear religious symbols in your school, but not if they pose a danger to yourself or other students. Religious symbol or not, no student should be carrying a 5 inch knife around while in school. It has nothing to do with tolerance or intolerance, it's a matter of safety.

What if wearing such symbols violates a uniform rule of the school, perhaps relating to jewelery, as is the case in many (if not most) schools of these days? Would it make a difference if the wearing of the symbol is considered a religious duty as opposed to simply an expression of one's faith?

[Nikos]

Thank you Nikos for your swift reply. Allow me, if you will, to ask you a few follow-up questions, perhaps to add another layer of consideration into the problem.

I'll try my best!

So were the knife welded into its sheath as suggested, would you permit it in your school, assuming you were to play the role of the Headmaster?

Yes I would, that way it eliminates the danger of the tirpan being drawn and used as a weapon. If properly secured, there is no reason that I can see why I wouldn't allow it.

What would you think about someone bringing one into, say, a courthouse or a hospital?

Seeing as courthouses and hospitals have armed security, I would feel ok about Sikhs wearing the tirpan within them.

What if wearing such symbols violates a uniform rule of the school, perhaps relating to jewelery, as is the case in many (if not most) schools of these days? Would it make a difference if the wearing of the symbol is considered a religious duty as opposed to simply an expression of one's faith?

If it was seen as a religious duty (as the tirpan is) then I think it should be allowed (if properly secured as I have previously stated) . If merely an expression of one's faith then I think they should be prohibited, or worn under the clothing so as not to break the school's dress code.

[ShADoW]

I'm all for religious symbols as long as its kept to the person and not used to influence others, etc. Although I'm pretty mixed about the issue dealing with the Kirpan since it essentially has the potential of being used as a weapon.

[MaximiIian]

- Firstly, should the boy be allowed a Kirpan in school, and if so what conditions should apply to it (such as the proposed size or ability to unsheath it)?

No, it's a matter of safety. You can't carry a weapon into a school; it poses a risk to the student, his peers, and the staff.
In any case, the school already offered a means to carry a kirpan to school, one that is less dangerous. They tried to accommodate him and he refused; he doesn't really have any excuse to and moan.

- Secondly, are there any other situations in which you think a Sikh should be disallowed a Kirpan (such as public venues or transport)?

Airports, buses, trains, and other places where anyone else would be forbidden to carry a knife.

- Finally, do you think that students should be allowed to wear any kind of religious symbols in school

Sure, as long as it's not a weapon. To use my own religion as an example, a Wiccan student shouldn't be allowed to carry an athame or boline (ritual knives) to school, but a pendant with a symbol (pentacle, moon, horned head) is perfectly fine.
I am, mostly, against restrictions on clothing at schools. And I am wholly opposed to and disgusted by school uniforms.

[Bovril]

It's interesting. Few of the male Sikhs I met in the Punjab in India when I was there for a couple of weeks wore the Kirpan. I wonder if there is some complexity to the item as symbol which means wearing it in school, for instance, is not necessary. But I don't know.

[Djûn]

It's interesting. Few of the male Sikhs I met in the Punjab in India when I was there for a couple of weeks wore the Kirpan. I wonder if there is some complexity to the item as symbol which means wearing it in school, for instance, is not necessary. But I don't know.

That seems odd indeed considering that wearing the Kirpan is as important a reliigous duty in Sikhism as keeping one's hair uncut.

[MaximiIian]

That seems odd indeed considering that wearing the Kirpan is as important a reliigous duty in Sikhism as keeping one's hair uncut.

And Judaism technically forbids eating pork, yet I know many Jews that eat ham and bacon.

[Trey]

That seems odd indeed considering that wearing the Kirpan is as important a reliigous duty in Sikhism as keeping one's hair uncut.

How then do they fly?

[Fiyenyaa]

If it's welded shut, then there's no problem. If it isn't, it's a damn knife and should be treated as such.

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Pff, Religious symbols should be allowed without any debates. I wore one in my school days of a Broken Cross with an Islam Crecent Moon and Star stamped out it. Christans got pissed but then who cares what they think?

[removeduser_487563287433]

My hometown is the largest Sikh community outside London and India, so I am probably the expert here. Most Sikhs wear broaches, those who wear replica kirpans are about as much as a threat as a toddler with a Thundercats sword. Obviously there needs to be sensible restrictions but 99.99% of Sikhs will already be acting with common sense without being told. There's really no problem with it.

And whoever heard of a Sikh attacking somebody with their kirpan, anyway?

[manofarms89]

there was a similar story in California several years back, and the family agreed to bring a blunt Kirpan instead.

[Poet]

Definitely when a Sikh travels from country to country, he is not allowed to have a "scimitar" with him in air planes. So same is the situation here, I think he should understand that his "kirpan" can be used as a weapon and he should either accept what School management is suggesting or he should keep his kirpan at home.

[Banana Jelly]

Who the hell would want a knife inside a school? No matter if it's a religious symbol, a knife is a knife. School does not allow knifes in school even for self defence.

[Arch-hereticK]

You could easily strangle someone with an unwound turban and crusifixes can be pointy and the star of david is just a ninja death-star by another name and the muslim cresent is very pointy.

The moral of the story: idolatry really is dangerous.

[MaximiIian]

a knife is a knife.

That's not a knife.


That's a knife.

[The Dude]

I guess I should join the NRA and then claim that firearms are my religious symbol. Let's see how the school reacts when I bring a Colt 1911 along to class. I'm guessing not much different, and my argument that "it's not really intended as a weapon" will be equally illogical.

[Banana Jelly]

That's not a knife.


That's a knife.

Right...



I can get hurt with a item the shiks use though. It was designed to look like a knife