Land of the free; one in a hundred US citizens are slaves?

[Amorphos]

Land of the free; one in a hundred US citizens are slaves?

i think its 1 in 10 overall, and 100 at any one time?

I was watching a TV show called QI, and on it steven fry said that 1 in 100 us citizens are in prison, and then he showed a box of objects as examples of items you cannot bring into the country [USA]. He then noted that the reason why is that these and many other products are made by inmates, and he showed some examples of just how easy it is to get put in jail in america. It was noted that these 1 in 10 are effectively used as slaves, giving the US economy a massive source of cheap labour.

1. Is any of this true?

2. isn’t this worse than even ancient societies where at least the slaves were not in a prison ~ even if slavery itself is something of a prison?

3. Should the EU do it too, so that we have ultra cheap labour, to help us in our current predicament?

I think prisons are a huge cost, but I also think way to many people are put in them, and having a system that needs prisoners for cheap labour, will itself cause there to be more prisoners.

I don’t know, the more I find out about america the worse it gets. Land of the free, pah, more like land where the few exploit the many, enslave them and let them die in the streets.

Am I being harsh?

edit; just finding some links on this...

The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world. The U.S. incarceration rate on December 31, 2008 was 754 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarce..._United_States

edit2;
check this out...
http://motherjones.com/politics/2008...ctorias-secret

Tens of thousands of US inmates are paid from pennies to minimum wage—minus fines and victim compensation—for everything from grunt work to firefighting to specialized labor. Here's a sampling of what they make, and for whom.
Eating in: Each month, California inmates process more than 680,000 pounds of beef, 400,000 pounds of chicken products, 450,000 gallons of milk, 280,000 loaves of bread, and 2.9 million eggs (from 160,000 inmate-raised hens). Starbucks subcontractor Signature Packaging Solutions has hired Washington prisoners to package holiday coffees (as well as Nintendo Game Boys). Confronted by a reporter in 2001, a Starbucks rep called the setup "entirely consistent with our mission statement."

Patriotic duties: Federal Prison Industries, a.k.a. Unicor, says that in addition to soldiers' uniforms, bedding, shoes, helmets, and flak vests, inmates have "produced missile cables (including those used on the Patriot missiles during the Gulf War)" and "wiring harnesses for jets and tanks." In 1997, according to Prison Legal News, Boeing subcontractor MicroJet had prisoners cutting airplane components, paying $7 an hour for work that paid union wages of $30 on the outside.

[roy34543]

Its not exactly slavery, It appears to be voluntary (they get time shaved off their sentences and money if they work, yes they do get paid minimum wage)
Its really a distressing ethical dilema though, if prisons do get privatized it could lead to demands for people to go into jail even longer. The number of inmates in american jails is no coincedence, its almost entirely because of high drug rates and harsh laws for drug users (problem is theyre often not in a mental state to work anyway)

1. Is any of this true?

So yes. Sort of. Cheap labour bit is, Slavery not exactly. Its just a very very powerful enticement to work

2. isn’t this worse than even ancient societies where at least the slaves were not in a prison ~ even if slavery itself is something of a prison?

Its better in every way. It gives them a chance to make something of their lives, and the alternative is punishment without doing anything. If they do work, they get less time in jail and money.
The ethical question I think is if government or corporation are going to be tempted to increase profits through jail.

3. Should the EU do it too, so that we have ultra cheap labour, to help us in our current predicament?

EU does do it as well, but in different ways. You cant really have prisoners just lounging about in jail or the only thing they have to do is to start riots
The thing is though its not really economically efficient, they make cheap goods yes, but you need a huge facility, lots of guards and security equipment along with various amenities to make the inmates happy. Ir really doesnt make that much money, it just mitigates the effect prison has .

I think prisons are a huge cost, but I also think way to many people are put in them, and having a system that needs prisoners for cheap labour, will itself cause there to be more prisoners.

Thats the real risk I think. If its self-propogating. Even though the money provided is minimal as well, its still money. Might encourage some people to go to jail simply to earn a wage at all (though I doubt it. Homeless and the poor are better off then people imagine)

[chilon]

if prisons do get privatized it could lead to demands for people to go into jail even longer. The number of inmates in american jails is no coincedence, its almost entirely because of high drug rates and harsh laws for drug users (problem is theyre often not in a mental state to work anyway)

What do you mean "if".

US prison system is already heavily privatized. Especially California and Texas too I think.

You are entirely right about the main reason for the high incarceration rates in USA is the ridiculous "War on Drugs".

You can really blame Slick Willy Clinton who was a HUGE supporter of throwing non-violent drug users in jail throughout the 1990s. Clinton did this to hook up his favorite security company Wackenhutt.

[Thorn777]

What do you mean "if".

US prison system is already heavily privatized. Especially California and Texas too I think.

You are entirely right about the main reason for the high incarceration rates in USA is the ridiculous "War on Drugs".

You can really blame Slick Willy Clinton who was a HUGE supporter of throwing non-violent drug users in jail throughout the 1990s. Clinton did this to hook up his favorite security company Wackenhutt.

Thats right, Clinton did allot of harm out there, also on his welfare-reform throwing allot of allround hopeless people out on the streets, but don't forget Ronald Reagan who started "the war on drugs" on behalf of Nancy, and then after Clinton, Bush expanding the "3 strikes and your out" crap out of California.

Its really sickening when watching the vid I posted on the last page. These anti-drugs squads usually don't get any funding and have to finance themselves trough possessions. They can stop you, posses anything you got with you(car, shoes, money, whatever)and don't even have to file charges against you since its a civil case. Just being "a suspect" is enough already.

And the the girlfriends of drugdealers not having much involvement at all(if any) getting sentenced to "minimum sentences" like 10, 20, 30 years, while the boyfriend can get out after 5 for testifying against someone else.

You see a legislator who worked that out almost crying because of the stuff he "legislated" and thinking about a kid wanting to kill himself because his mother was sentenced for 20 years, as her boyfriend had drugs hidden in her house.

I have no words for how I feel about this happening in a civilized country. That war on drugs needs to stop.

[chilon]

Thats right, Clinton did allot of harm out there, also on his welfare-reform throwing allot of allround hopeless people out on the streets, but don't forget Ronald Reagan who started "the war on drugs" on behalf of Nancy, and then after Clinton, Bush expanding the "3 strikes and your out" crap out of California.

Good post thorn777 but something needs to be cleared up here:



It was not either of the Bush that was responsible for California's idiotic 3 Strikes Law (I live in California btw). Neither was it any Republican politician or Democrat politician.


California's idiotic, stupid and ridiculously poorly written Three Strikes Law was passed by:


Voter Ballot Initiative. It was Proposition 184 btw

The law was the result of the California's initiative/proposition Direct Democracy system.

No California legislature or Governor can overturn the 3 Strikes Law since it was a "voter initiative".

Like many of the stupidest laws on California's books the only people to blame are: The People of California themselves.

Honestly, California is Exhibit A in why "Direct Democracy" sounds great on paper but does NOT work out all that well in practice even without "astroturfing".

[Thorn777]

Heard a few years ago its fastest growing part of the domestic economy too.

Indeed its bad IMO. The problem is poverty> drugs >imprisoned.

IMO gov should at least make sure they are not destroying real jobs etc.

[BNS]

Yeah okay bud 754/100,000 does not equal 1/10. Secondly the minuscule labor done by the inmates does not even begin to address their cost in taxes to the economy. So lets cut out this unfounded anti-American paranoia.

[Pickle_mole]

Yeah okay bud 754/100,000 does not equal 1/10. Secondly the minuscule labor done by the inmates does not even begin to address their cost in taxes to the economy. So lets cut out this unfounded anti-American paranoia.

i propose we fix this, we should calculate thier cost to society and then put them to work to pay that debt to be free. You will have to pay for your food, if you dont work and make money, you dont eat, just like the rest of us. Make them earn there freedom, give them something to do and accomplish, not rot in a steel cage.

[Amorphos]

Its not exactly slavery, It appears to be voluntary

Given the choice of doing nothing or working and getting tobacco etc, and being put in solitary if you don’t [in some cases], leaves little to do with the term ‘voluntary’. + being incarcerated = slavery.

if prisons do get privatized it could lead to demands for people to go into jail even longer.

Indeed!

--------------------

Heard a few years ago its fastest growing part of the domestic economy too.

Really! that’s interesting!

The problem is poverty> drugs >imprisoned.

= an infinite resourse to be abused by the state.

IMO gov should at least make sure they are not destroying real jobs etc.

I doubt if it matter to them, other more reliable people will get the MW jobs etc, and they have a massive source for ultra cheap labour. who needs china when you have your own cheap labour force.

[Amorphos]

Yeah okay bud 754/100,000 does not equal 1/10.

Not far off. still bloddy loads of people are slaves!

Secondly the minuscule labor done by the inmates does not even begin to address their cost in taxes to the economy. So lets cut out this unfounded anti-American paranoia.

I was informed that they more than pay their way.

[Gaidin]

Not far off. still bloddy loads of people are slaves!

754/100,000 is nowhere near 10,000/100,000.

Just so you know. And that's assuming we accept your definition of slave.

[Amorphos]

They are getting PAID, to live in secure, comfortable APARTMENTS, if they do some light labor, after committing a crime. Meanwhile, a perfectly repsonsible citizen is paying for them to live there.

Is it light labour? I have yet to find out what hours they do. Some would say that smoking pot can be done by a responsible citizen, hence the system creates the criminal in some cases. probably in most cases it comes down to societal issues which are not just the fault of individuals but of the state also.

You can get off your soap box now.

Mois, never!

----------------

754/100,000 is nowhere near 10,000/100,000.

Note op edited.

what definition would you give that is not just bending the meaning as much as i am?

[Thorn777]

I doubt if it matter to them, other more reliable people will get the MW jobs etc, and they have a massive source for ultra cheap labour. who needs china when you have your own cheap labour force.

It IMO surely is an ethical duty of gov to make sure that doesn't happen. In Germany its not allowed on welfare-jobs either, but in prison-jobs its kinda the same effect but even worse.

Its just endorsing the down-wards spiral even further: prison-job > law obeying citizen without a job > turns poor > uses drugs or becomes a real criminal > imprisoned.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

1. They are not slaves, they are cheap labor. That doesn't make it perfect in itself; just wanted to clarify the terms. They do receive pay.

2. They cost a crapload of money to be held in prison. You could pay someone's way through college, or pay for an equivalent amount of time in prison.

3. Their conditions in prison are far from inhumane.

4. Therefore, the poor former drug dealer who made your license plate for less than minimum wage (oh my) is hardly being taken advantage of. Economically, it would be far better to kick him out into the street than to keep him in prison making license plates.

Seriously, if I were homeless and down to my last option, I would break some law to get myself into prison for a couple of years.

[Amorphos]

if being imprisoned and forced/coerced to work is not slavery then what the hell is?

my suspicions are aroused by the sheer amount of them and the strict attitude of the state, creating evermore prisoners.

Updated op with this…

http://motherjones.com/politics/2008...ctorias-secret

Tens of thousands of US inmates are paid from pennies to minimum wage—minus fines and victim compensation—for everything from grunt work to firefighting to specialized labor. Here's a sampling of what they make, and for whom.
Eating in: Each month, California inmates process more than 680,000 pounds of beef, 400,000 pounds of chicken products, 450,000 gallons of milk, 280,000 loaves of bread, and 2.9 million eggs (from 160,000 inmate-raised hens). Starbucks subcontractor Signature Packaging Solutions has hired Washington prisoners to package holiday coffees (as well as Nintendo Game Boys). Confronted by a reporter in 2001, a Starbucks rep called the setup "entirely consistent with our mission statement."

Patriotic duties: Federal Prison Industries, a.k.a. Unicor, says that in addition to soldiers' uniforms, bedding, shoes, helmets, and flak vests, inmates have "produced missile cables (including those used on the Patriot missiles during the Gulf War)" and "wiring harnesses for jets and tanks." In 1997, according to Prison Legal News, Boeing subcontractor MicroJet had prisoners cutting airplane components, paying $7 an hour for work that paid union wages of $30 on the outside.

[LaMuerte]

Seriously, if I were homeless and down to my last option, I would break some law to get myself into prison for a couple of years.

Sorry , but I had to laugh out loud when I read this...

Anyways , I know a few guys who actually do stuff like this ... but just in the cold winter months. Once the weather gets better they wanna get out to have a drink somewhere, or shoot some dope. No liquor shops in prison , you see? Plenty of dope in prison though... Liberty beats jail anytime , except in sub-zero temperatures...

And they are homeless people ,they just like their booze and/or dope a bit too much.They're not hardened criminals that do the heavy stuff which gets you a couple of years in prison. They mostly get caught for petty theft and/or, drug abuse , not murder , armed robbery , forgery , rape , etc.

Some actually have a sort of 'understanding' with local law enforcement, they're actually some sort of regulars. Cops keep 'em warm in jail during the cold months , the homeless provide cops with 'information' in return.

[GrnEyedDvl]

Given the choice of doing nothing or working and getting tobacco etc, and being put in solitary if you don’t [in some cases], leaves little to do with the term ‘voluntary’.

Nobody is put in solitary for not joining a work party. The choice of doing nothing or doing something is entirely up to the criminal.

+ being incarcerated = slavery.

Then we should just release everyone? Rapists, murderers, corporate scum like Madoff that bilk people for billions.

Being incarcerated is NOT slavery. Its a choice. If you dont want to be in prison then choose not to commit a crime. If you feel something is illegal that shouldnt be (pot, whatever) it STILL doesnt give you the right to do as you please.

Furthermore, most of these violent/repeat offenders are lucky to even be alive.

[DaVinci]

Nobody is put in solitary for not joining a work party. The choice of doing nothing or doing something is entirely up to the criminal.




Then we should just release everyone? Rapists, murderers, corporate scum like Madoff that bilk people for billions.

Being incarcerated is NOT slavery. Its a choice. If you dont want to be in prison then choose not to commit a crime. If you feel something is illegal that shouldnt be (pot, whatever) it STILL doesnt give you the right to do as you please.

Furthermore, most of these violent/repeat offenders are lucky to even be alive.

Bold part: I disagree here (if: "It's a choice" is meant like that). Many of criminal individuals had/have not the choice to make a non-criminal life. I know and understand, it's an easy-made claim, but sociological analysis brings evidence, that the social environment produces its strong manipulation on the socialisation of people - this includes the whole education of childs (how they grow up) since they are born into determined circumstances. A lot of the criminals have not a free decision to make a proper life without crime. Or do you want to claim, that a new born baby wouldn't have a chance to have a non-criminal life? And then, why are the rates of crimes that high in certain classes and areas of the societies?

[GrnEyedDvl]

Or do you want to claim, that a new born baby wouldn't have a chance to have a non-criminal life? And then, why are the rates of crimes that high in certain classes and areas of the societies?

I will absolutely argue that. Not every single person born in a high crime rate, gang infested, drug selling neighborhood turns to crime. In fact most DO NOT turn to crime as a way of life. Just look at the numbers from the last census.

Approximately 24% of the black population in the US lives in poverty, and graphed out on the map you can see it broken down by county and that those counties also have higher gang and criminal activity, as you would expect.

Poverty and race
The US Census declared that in 2007 12.5% of all people,[17] including
- 8.2% white people [21]
- 24.7% black people [20]
- 21.5% all Hispanic people of any race,[23] lived in poverty.

Are you telling me that 24% of blacks are criminals? Thats pure crap and you know it. But in case you still want to argue this point, then read this article from the Justice Department.

About 10.4% of the entire African-American male population in the United States aged 25 to 29 was incarcerated, by far the largest racial or ethnic group—by comparison, 2.4% of Hispanic men and 1.2% of white men in that same age group were incarcerated. According to a report by the Justice Policy Institute in 2002, the number of black men in prison has grown to five times the rate it was twenty years ago. Today, more African-American men are in jail than in college. In 2000 there were 791,600 black men in prison and 603,032 enrolled in college. In 1980, there were 143,000 black men in prison and 463,700 enrolled in college

Now while that 10% number is still huge, its a very far cry from 24%. And while it does prove that there are a higher percentage of people in bad areas who commit crimes, it ALSO proves that the assertion by you that a "new born baby wouldnt have a chance at a non-criminal life" is completely false.

There are literally millions of people born into the same situation who do NOT chose to live that lifestyle. In fact the number of people who chose not to lead that life far outnumbers the ones that do choose to.

Yes, its purely a choice.




EDIT: I dunno what happened to that link, but I found that exact same excerpt on infoplease and put that link in its place.

[roy34543]

Given the choice of doing nothing or working and getting tobacco etc, and being put in solitary if you don’t [in some cases], leaves little to do with the term ‘voluntary’. + being incarcerated = slavery

True its a large incentive. But if your in jail for a long period of time with no chance of parole you probably wont care. If you have a very short sentence as well you probably wont bother.
The question is if the alternative is better, make them do nothing so they lose job skills and strength, make them work but dont pay them which is really slavery, or give only certain prisoners the chance to work. None are really good choices.

was informed that they more than pay their way.

Depends on the state. For example in california its widely publisized theyre going bankrupt partly because of the prison population.
Normally though they dont pay their way. Its generally accepted you need a guard for every 3 dangerous prisoners, and if your putting them on 8 hour shifts you need 3 guards overall for every prisoner.
Expensive stuff .