Christians, explain this please

[The Fishman]

If God wanted to forgive everybody, why did he have to sacrifice his only son to do it?

[Banana Jelly]

His son was god.

[The Fishman]

His son was god.

Still, he could have forgiven people without killing his son (or himself?). Why did he need to do this to forgive people?

[Tankbuster]

Because, apparently, that was the only loophole that the Creator of the Universe could find to do it

I can see him now: "I know! I love blood sacrifices! I'll just kill myself... to myself..."

[The Fishman]

I mean, sacrificing your own son in order to save somebody you love looses a lot of its meaning if you could actually have let both be saved.

[Arch-hereticK]

Because God loves you so much he killed himself (who is also his son) as punishment for a rule he made up in the first place.
What a swell guy.

[MaximiIian]

Even gods are beholden to bureaucracy.

[Arch-hereticK]

Even gods are beholden to bureaucracy.

That's awesome, I'd rep you but I did so recently.

[Monarchist]

So far, not one Christian has actually answered this post. Can we at least let a Christian respond with a real answer before starting another ridiculous flaming fest against them?

[The Fishman]

So far, not one Christian has actually answered this post. Can we at least let a Christian respond with a real answer before starting another ridiculous flaming fest against them?

Yeah, it is a bit annoying when this sort of thing happens. It was a serious question and it is a pretty serious issue I have with Christianity given that it's besically the core of their beliefs.

[xcorps]

Why do people insist on trying to apply logic to a principle that is illogical?

[The Fishman]

Why do people insist on trying to apply logic to a principle that is illogical?

Because if Christians want to convert people they have to be able to convince them that their religion makes sense. This isn't some attempt to try and disprove the mystical, indefinable trinity using a convoluted logical argument, its pretty simple stuff really.

[Monarchist]

Because if Christians want to convert people they have to be able to convince them that their religion makes sense. This isn't some attempt to try and disprove the mystical, indefinable trinity using a convoluted logical argument, its pretty simple stuff really.

This is why I am not a Christian, at least not yet. Every time I ask for a simple, sensible reason to believe the religion, I am bombarded by a million strange regulations and what-ifs. God, from what I feel and see, is simple (though not simplistic), ordered, and structured. Christianity is not godly or divine, but it seems auspicious in its contrivances. I myself know very little, of course, so it may very well be entirely true. I like to leave myself open, in the probable case that I am very wrong and am simply misunderstanding God.

[Arch-hereticK]

This is why I am not a Christian, at least not yet. Every time I ask for a simple, sensible reason to believe the religion, I am bombarded by a million strange regulations and what-ifs. God, from what I feel and see, is simple (though not simplistic), ordered, and structured. Christianity is not godly or divine, but it seems auspicious in its contrivances. I myself know very little, of course, so it may very well be entirely true. I like to leave myself open, in the probable case that I am very wrong and am simply misunderstanding God.

Funny, that's how I became an atheist.

Come to the dark-side. We have cookies (filled with sticky sex and chewy sin).

[xcorps]

Because if Christians want to convert people they have to be able to convince them that their religion makes sense. This isn't some attempt to try and disprove the mystical, indefinable trinity using a convoluted logical argument, its pretty simple stuff really.

Belief in something that cannot be proved is not something that can be made sense of.

Asking "Why did God do this or that" is asking for an explanation that cannot be explained unless it's written that God said "I'm doing this because of..."

Faith is the requirement for forgiveness of sins (pertaining to Jesus and his sacrifice) under the New Testament. You don't have to understand it, you just have to believe it.

[The Fishman]

Belief in something that cannot be proved is not something that can be made sense of.

Asking "Why did God do this or that" is asking for an explanation that cannot be explained unless it's written that God said "I'm doing this because of..."

Faith is the requirement for forgiveness of sins (pertaining to Jesus and his sacrifice) under the New Testament. You don't have to understand it, you just have to believe it.

But unless I saw Jesus perform a miracle personally or something weird like that, why should I have faith in something that doesn't make sense, when I could have faith in something else that does? It's the same question that drove me out of Islam, in a way.

[xcorps]

But unless I saw Jesus perform a miracle personally or something weird like that, why should I have faith in something that doesn't make sense, when I could have faith in something else that does? It's the same question that drove me out of Islam, in a way.

Not seeing the miracle and believing is Faith.

Seeing the miracle and believing is not Faith.

[tonymurphy1888]

Belief in something that cannot be proved is not something that can be made sense of.

Asking "Why did God do this or that" is asking for an explanation that cannot be explained unless it's written that God said "I'm doing this because of..."

Faith is the requirement for forgiveness of sins (pertaining to Jesus and his sacrifice) under the New Testament. You don't have to understand it, you just have to believe it.

Blind faith was a real problem for me for like 5 years its very difficult to overcome even as a life long catholic, it's really is alot to ask. But the knowing god has made sacrafices can really help while making my own sacrafices, I suppose that could be one of the reasons for the sacrafice of christ

[Tankbuster]

Now, to give a slightly more serious answer, the reason for the convoluted approach to the forgiving of sins is because of the way the early Jewish-Christian sect evolved.
Jesus, in declaring himself the Messiah and 'King of the Jews', was meant to fulfill the prophecies in the Old Testament and then lead in the end of times so that the kingship of Jahweh on Earth could finally begin. The historical Jesus was convinced that this event was very close (that's why he says at one point that many of his listeners will see the day that the Kingship of Jahweh comes).

Now, after Jesus' crucifixion and after they realised that the Kingship of Jahweh apparently was not as close as they had thought, they did almost exactly what people expecting an alien invasion or something of the sort, do. Sociological studies show that these kinds of people generally don't say "Oh geez, aren't we a pack of idiots? Let's go home and get laughed at by everyone we know!" They either (i) postpone the date of the expected event or (ii) say that it was all part the plan.
Early Christians seem to have done both: they postponed the actual Kingship of Jahweh (an event they are still awaiting, if you hadn't noticed) and in addition, they made up a pretty convoluted scenario to explain that this was actually the Almighty's plan all along.

In addition, this supplied them with an excellent explanation to converts when they asked why this supposed Messiah had suffered such a humiliating and painful form of death penalty. This was a real stumbling block (as Paul says) for Early Christians, and the 'he died for our sins' idea was a perfect answer.

Of course, the collateral damage of this story is that you're supposed to make some pretty weird assumptions. Such as that God apparently can't just decide to forgive humanity's sins, but has to use the mechanism of torturing and sacrificing himself to... himself.

[Monarchist]

Thank you for your understanding, Fishman.

I myself have great sympathy for Christians, and I befriend them more than any others. Having listened to literally hundreds of Christian lectures and sermons in podcast form, it is clearer to me what they seem to believe. The most common metaphor is that man was "drowning" in an ocean, and that God had to throw Himself/His Son in as something like a life-raft or life-saver for mankind. In this manner, humanity was able to claw back out of his drowning, but also managed to kick and flail as Christ rescued him, thus forcing Christ down into the water. It's a nice metaphor, but it's still just a metaphor and doesn't really do much.

This is also one thing that bothers me immensely about Christianity. How on Earth can God be so callous as to simply refuse to pardon human beings from Heaven? All He has to do is simply ... think it, and it is done, after all. Why should He go through the convoluted process of murdering His Son, or Himself in order to do what he could do with a mere stroke of Cosmic energy? I can't believe that God would be so... bureaucratic and tortuous as all that, when it comes to saving us.