Mace Campaign

[Philip_II]

As much as I'd love talking about my campaign in the Show Empires, I think that because they're all mod-foldered that each one should be taken individually.

On a whole, my campaign has been going well, bug-free even, when my laptop has been doing well for me. I've taken all of Greece/eliminated Sparta by 546, and I'm now doing something I never dreamed, which is taking the fight to the Romans early in the game. My only concern at the moment are the Getae, that are starting to make inroads from the north that could become a problem. Anyway, in Italy, I've been using my ships to attempt amphibious attacks up and down the coast, taking cities when I can (and am out of reach of the five full stacks the Romans can create at any time), and evaporating into the mist when need be. At this point, I've almost taken all of Sicily, and have defended it by eliminating all the Roman navies I can, thus cutting off hopefully a large chunk of the Roman income. I can see about four legions on the coast, waiting for a boat, but the hope is that it never comes. We'll see how well it goes. At this point, I can see no other way for a Mace player to realistically face Rome because of how buffed they are. I would ask for a minor reduction only because I think the Roman strength is a bit overkill (they've got a few choke points of legions, I could get screens, but we all know what it looks like). I think that if we nerfed the romans ability to create so many armies, it would be beneficial to the Greek/Mace/Spartan player. Only because their close proximity makes fighting an OP Rome very difficult. Well, not difficult, just frustrating. Like Danni has said, it's not the quality or vastness of the empire, it's just the almost endless armies and levies that you have to slog through that gets tiresome. I know the only way is to wait for them to enter ships and take them out there.

On the Mace side, I think the way the barracks tree currently is works well, but if we could split up the hypaspists and basilikoi peltastai into the Successor Army Base and Elite Army Base, that would make more sense. Right now, the only incentive to build the final level is the Companion Cav (which why they're called Royal Cav and not Companion Cav, doesn't make sense to me, but whatever). So at this point, I haven't even built the last level in Pella, because I feel I can use the Paiones Hippeis and Lonchophoroi Cav just as well, if not better. Stats-wise, I think that the Royal Cav could use a boost of a point or two on defense to distinguish them from the others. Make the player want to have them, in-game. Besides the fact that they look BA. Everything else works well, I like the improvement of the Thorakitai. And the Bottians have become surprisingly good staples for my army. But why no pezhatairoi or even a mention of them? I know where the term Bottian comes from but I feel it would make more sense if we showed even more connection to Alexander by implementing the pez in there somewhere (but yes, there are other units called pezhatairoi already so if that's a problem, I understand).

Economically, I feel there's not that much of an issue, because I'm not being at all pressed from the East or North. Once Pergamon/Getae/Scythia start wanting to fight though, it will be a long bout to keep my northern holdings. I thoroughly enjoy all the work that has gone into being forced to build a balanced empire. At this point I'm only really getting troops out of Pella/Thessalonike. However, I'm starting to build up Appollonia into a production center as well, considering its closeness to Italy.

So out of this the things I would take a look at for the Mace mod-folder are that distinction with the barracks, nerfing the Romans a little bit so they have to seriously choose which direction to expand (at this point they are literally going EVERYWHERE, Segestica, Massalia, and are about to send 3 full stacks to try and kick me out of Siciliy, notice I say "try" ). And finally, the pike names, which is completely ancillary at this junction, IMO.

[MarcusTullius]

Not a problem, although make sure any bugs you find are still posted in the "Great Big Bugs Thread"

[Philip_II]

Not a problem, although make sure any bugs you find are still posted in the "Great Big Bugs Thread"

Will do.

[dvk901]

'Royal Cavalry' changed to 'Companion Cavalry'. You're right, makes more sense.

[Philip_II]

One more minor change that may sound picky but the change in attribute to increase the Bottian Phalangites has increased their cost to more than Basilikoi Peltastai and even Hypaspists. If you can warrant reducing their cost from around 2700 to around 2300 but reduce the att/def a point each, that would make the equality of the unit list make more sense.

This is mainly because half of all my forces are all Bottians and now my costs are exploding, but I feel it makes sense regardless.

[Philip_II]

Quick post because I've gotta jet to classes in a bit.

This is without a doubt one of the most enjoyable campaigns I've ever played for the mod. The battle between the Romans and I is coming to a head at Salonae of all places (meaning they've left almost all of mainland Italy and have sent about four full stacks to the North. I'm honestly going to just fight till I won't lose. As long as I don't lose an army, I'll be able to send a full stack to South Italy and take about three or four settlements, before they can make it back. Then if I can simply hold those for a bit while I reload, I should be able to take Rome pre-Marian reforms. Currently, I have Sicily (sans Syracuse) and all of Greece. My econ is being stretched because of how fast I blitzed and also trying to keep 20 settlements happy/support ~3 full stacks. Right now I'm able to have a healthy mix of units, but I still want to know if we can limit the Bottian Phalangites a bit stats-wise so they're cost will be lower relatively to both Hypaspists and Basilikoi Peltastai. Anyway, wish me luck against the Romans and cheers!

Philip

[Revan The Great]

One thing you should keep in mind is that Bottian Phalangites have more soldiers in them than Hypaspists or Basilikon Peltasti. Not to say that your observations are incorrect, I haven't looked at the cost of Royal Soldiers vs. Pikemen of the Line, but you should at least consider that if, say, the Hypaspisti have 500 upkeep but only 200 men to split it between, they still cost 'more' than a unit of Bottians who cost 550 upkeep, but have 240 men.

Incidentally, having less soldiers man-for-man than regiments of line infantry also makes Royal Units less effective, since numbers will outweigh their stats in a 1-on-1 battle between single regiments. Which is disappointing.

[tone]

At one point I gave them a "Greek Royal Guard" bonus in the spreadsheet, but for some reason removed it - probably ought to reinstate that

[Revan The Great]

A bonus to stats, or a bonus to how much they cost? Come to think of it I should really go look at Macedonian units so I know what I'm talking about.

Oh, and if you make any sort of broad-spectrum changes to Royal Guards make sure you also include the Ptolemies' Basilikon Agema, since it's easy to forget them and just do Hypaspisti's Peltasti's and Royal Thoritikai. On another note, this does remind me that a unit of Basilikon Peltasti were beaten in a 1v1 battle with a unit of Polybian Cohorts in one of my other campaigns - and not just beaten, destroyed to the point of only 13 or so men left compared to 100-120 Polybians before my cavalry finally got around to saving them. Maybe some stat boosts (and cost boosts) are in order?

[tone]

I gave them something like one extra defence bonus point.
Don't worry about the basilikon agema - with the spreadsheet it makes it all easy.


Was that playing as Macedon?

[Revan The Great]

It was either as Macedonia, or as the Greek Cities, since as you know the Greeks start with two units of Royal Peltasts. I shipped one over to Syracuse when war broke out with the Romans, so that either happened while serving under Hiero in Sicily as the Greeks, or under Prince Perseus of Macedon while fighting the Romans in Epirus. Can't recall = /

[Philip_II]

For Bottian Phalangites, the cost is 2696 for a 123 man unit (on large). Basilikoi Peltastai have three more defense but 20 less men and still cost 100 less. I'm not sure that the costs should be upped any more (my econ is struggling as is). But if the Bottians need to have one defense removed to warrant being reduced a couple hundred in cost, that's fine with me. I think increasing the stats of Peltastai isn't really necessary, they're fine as is. Unless, like I think you're considering, you want to distinguish them apart as Royal Infantry. Which makes sense and would warrant an increase in stats/cost. Either way, I'm still gonna strongly encourage for Bottian Phalangites to be reduced in cost.

[Revan The Great]

Well yes, the thing with the Basilikoi Peltasti is that they are infact Royal Guardsmen and, along with the Hypaspisti, Companion Cavalry, and Agema Phalangites they are the 'Praetorian's of Macedon', and I feel that their stats should definitely reflect this. If it were me, I'd want a unit of Hypaspisti or Basilikoi Peltasti to defeat a Roman Polybian Cohort 1v1, and if that means that costs go up, even dramatically, then so be it.

Historically by the time the Roman's were visiting Greece and Asia many of the Diadochi had stopped fielding their most elite forces simply because of expense as their nations declined after long periods of civil war and conflict with external powers (Rome, Parthia, etc.), so this outlook of mine has at least some historical basis.

[tone]

But if the Bottians need to have one defense removed to warrant being reduced a couple hundred in cost, that's fine with me.

The problem is that I've just increased their defence and shield in response to some feedback, so they should last you better through some battles and therefore be worth it in the long run.

I will try giving the guard units one extra defence point though.

[Philip_II]

That's good. My opinion is definitely waning concerning the Romans when not playing them. They're ability to produce legions is just sick. I tried to hold off one or two full stacks and I could well enough but once you get that third, fourth, and fifth army, it's simply too much. And then they have more! It's disheartening to think that I can take all of their Sicilian holdings, conquer to Tarentum, Crotona, even Capua, but none of it matters because they have a literal steamroller that crushes everything and there's no way I can get three full stacks of enough high-quality troops to stop them from going all the way to Pella if they want to. No offense, but it would be okay if Carthage was doing something against they're arch-rivals but they are getting destroyed by the Gallaeci in Spain and no one's even taken Emporia because the Romans can get that much more. And I just realized the Romans hit the Marian reforms in 560, as when I took Capua I destroyed a Roman Fortress. There's just no way. Oh well, sorry about the rant, I just feel helpless. I played well, probably gambled a bit too much, but still could have pulled it off if I knew that one of my successes would actually put a dent in their armor. Oi ve.

[tone]

I'll tweak their costs just a little. I've got the premarian and post marian units set up seperately so I can just increase the premarian units a bit. It doesn't take a lot to tame things.

[Philip_II]

Yeah, I guess it's hard. Because at this point we're always walking a fine line between hard and insanity. I would say we're a bit over the edge. Not by much (it's not spamming as much as it is hopeless) but a little cutting back would make it a bit easier.

However, is it the unit cost that really matters that much? I mean, the Romans easily have 400-600K every turn without even sweating, they bribed Salonae without even a second look. No fight, just a couple hundred denarii and they're back to over 500K the next turn. I even took 7 cities and it only reduced it down from 700.

[tone]

They shouldn't have that much if the script is working. Their treasury is capped at around 200,000.

Anyway I'll just an AI campaign or two and see how the new changes look, then upload if all's OK.

[Revan The Great]

I've been play-testing Royal Guards units and I have to say they're quite bad for what they should be. When I fight a battle in campaign if they fight in the front line they get completely mauled, and 1v1 custom battles result in them sometimes winning, usually losing against other nation's elite and medium quality units, but whenever they win its only by a margin of thirty or so men so they take ridiculous casualties.

Recommendations:

• Look into seeing of Royal Peltasts are classified as something they shouldn't be and subject to extra penalties. For example do 'ranged' units get a damage bonus against them vs. infantry and cavalry? The game might count the Peltasts as a 'Skirmisher Javelin' unit.
  
• Raise both Hypaspisti and Basilikoi Peltasti shields by 1 point, to be in line with changes to their pikemen comrades.
  
• Just increase their unit size to 240 on max settings (I guess that translates to 120 in the descr_units?), this might be the most important thing, along with the shield change. Although I'm hesitant to advocate doing this - I think it'd be for the best. I've been conducting tests that I think show that.
  
• Consider looking into raising both two Royal soldier's armor or defence skill by one or two respectively, in addition to raising their shield.

All battles were conducted on medium difficulty, to acertain the actual 'fair quality' of a unit without any bonuses or penalties applied to their ability. All results would inevitably be far more in favor of the Non-Macedonians in these tests if this were a campaign, on H/H. To avoid confusion each picture goes with the test below it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Basilikoi Peltasti vs. Polyban Cohorts. This really baffles me - take a look at the amount of soldiers that the Polybian's still have, even after getting showered by javelins from my Peltasti. The Peltasti's javelins caused three or four casualties, whereas the Roman's caused over 20! And, if you'll look, the Romans are preparing to fire yet another volley in melee range, which knocked my Peltasti down another twenty men. This happened every time I tested, and I can't figure out why - for some reason Peltasti javelins suck. Either way they easily lose to the Roman Polybians. I shudder to think what would happen if I had pitted them against Praetorians!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Basilikoi Peltasti vs. Pontic Epileptikoi Machairaphoroi. The first thing you should notice is the odd angle of the battle line at the very beginning of the fight - the Pontics were spazzing around in circles as I threw my javelins into them, thus in all probability losing some of the defensive bonus they'd gain from their shields. Still, as you can see, they only took losses in the single digits. Again, my Basilikoi Peltasti took much more, despite throwing first, charging first, but inevitably losing.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hypaspists vs. Polybian Cohorts. The battle opens with the Romans firing their pila volley and, like against the Basilikoi Peltasti, they fired a second volley while in melee range. This picture was taken right after the second volley fire - the most painful thing is that the Romans lagged or something, and took an entire five seconds to shoot off their second volley while on triple game speed. All the while my Hypaspists were attacking them unimpeded - and look how many casualties that resulted in. 3.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Later in the same battle, just before it ended. My last handful of Hypaspists are gathering together, fighting back to back as the Romans mercilessly slaughter them. In the end 200 of Macedonia's best soldiers died to kill only about 60 Roman Line Infantry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hypapists vs. Libyan Late-Spearmen. Interestingly enough, when the Hypapists charge they do so with their sword, and then immediately switch to their spears. Is their sword 'charge value' higher? Does their spear even have a charge value?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Same as above. In this battle the Hypapists won, thank goodness, but only walked away with 44 men remaining.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Last screenshot. This demonstrates evidence in favor of my suggestion to increase the size of the Hypapist (and Peltasti) units to have 240 soldiers at highest settings rather than just 200. Carthaginian Sacred Band vs. Hypaspists. For those who don't know the Sacred Band had 240 men, not including officers - 40 more than Hypaspists. You can see from the casualties that the two forces were dead even - except that the Carthaginians had more men, so won out in the end. The reason they have 73 men remaining as opposed to the 45 they actually finished the battle with is because of 'casualties healed' I presume.

[tone]

Derr.....I've just remembered something important which this has thrown up. The unit stats for these guys take no account of unit numbers, so they're a little stronger than the other units, but not significantly stronger. You're right, I'll need to do a bit of tweaking - tomorrow - need to get to bed.

Spear units always charge with their secondary weapon.