Reform plans

[Quinn Inuit]

Here are my comprehensive reform plans for the ExRM. What do you think?

Also, if anyone has any ideas on how to set up a time-based reform or one based on fighting someone? I don't actually know how to script that properly.


Bactria
Early: Phalangites, hetairoi, hippakontistai
Late: thureophoroi, thorakitai, cataphracts, same bodyguards as early, hippotoxotai
Changeover: farm-based, with cavalry change based on fighting Sarmatians or Parthians

Macedon
No reforms

Ptolies
Early: Galatian and Thracian mercenaries (the normal ones, recruitable from buildings)
Later: Galatian kleroi (new unit, only in one region), Machimoi phalangites
Changeover: time-based, ~220 BC
Problem: We should give them imitation legionnaires, but I'm not sure when.


Seleucids
Early: hetairoi, thureophoroi
Later: cataphracts, agema cataphracts, and hetairoi as bodyguards only, civil militia in Babylonia and Syria (new thureophoroi unit), Persian phalangites
Changeover: based on fighting Parthians or Sarmatians
Problem: I have no idea how to script this. Also, we should give them imitation legionnaires, but I'm not sure when.

Epirus
No reforms

Pontus
Early: Persian-style army (heavy and light hippakontistai, chariots, archers, sparabara, some shock cav as bodyguards {it'll be rounded out with AOR axemen}), with access to Greek hoplite mercs from the Black Sea
Later: hippakontistai replaced with shock cav, freed slave phalangites, brazen shield phalangites made up of Hellennic colonists (available wherever buildings exist), imitation legionnaires
Changeover: territorial (initial regions, Cappadocia, Scythia, Dacia, and Armenia must be Hellenized by building an additional barracks level, all other regions will start Hellenized--this assumes that Pontus will expand normally as opposed to invading Gaul, but if you're doing that then you probably aren't concerned about historical accuracy, anyway)
Problem: Not sure what to do about the legionnaires

Numidia
No change, but same issue with when to introduce legionnaires

Carthage
Early: hoplite-style troops
Later: same, but with Roman-inspired unit, trained by Roman deserters
Changeover: No idea

Rome
Early: Polybian troops
Later: Marian troops
Changeover: farm-based

Greeks (all)
Early: hoplites + thureophoroi
Later: phalangites + thureophoroi
Changeover: farm-based
Problem: Should thureophoroi be in the late section, too? Also, I'd like to give them thorakitai as imitation legionnaires, but I'm still not sure when.

Gauls + Gallic superfaction
Early: slingers, sword warband, small elite heavy infantry unit
Later: archers, spear warband, larger and not quite elite heavy infantry unit
Changeover: farm-based

Galatians
Early: pretty much the same lineup as the early Gauls
Later: Late Gaul, but with additional "returned merc" heavy unit (this could reasonably use the Galatian "kleroi" unit)
Changeover: farm-based
Problem: not sure when to give them imitation legionnaires

Armenia:
early: pseudo-cataphract
later: cataphract
Changeover: based on fighting Parthians or Sarmatians
Problem: I have no idea how to script this.

Parthians
early: horse archers, cataphracts, faction or AOR ranged
later: cataphracts, sparabara or Greek militia as appropriate (or other militia), AOR ranged
changeover: farm-based
note: They seem to have had cataphracts really early on.

Sarmatians
early: horse archers, cataphracts, archers
later: cataphracts, local AOR light infantry, faction javelineers
changeover: farm-based
note: They seem to have had cataphracts really early on.

Dacia
Early: Heavy falxmen
Late: Celtic-inspired heavy unit
Changeover: not sure

Germans:
Early: current, probably slightly streamlined (i.e., they're taking up too many hidden resources and DMB slots right now)
Later: more armoured and sword-armed units
Changeover: them leaving Germany and Scythia

Celtiberians
Early: caetrati units
Later: scutarii units
Changeover: time-based
Note: the scutarii units were (probably) introduced by the Carthaginians or Romans, and the Lusitanians stuck with the caetra

[Carados]

Rather than time and/or battle based for the reforms, might it be slightly better to do a region based reform? For example:

• If Parthia/Sarmatia were to take control of Margiana/Sogdiana this would trigger the cataphract reform for Bactria.
• For the celtiberians, they would get their "reform" if either Carthage or Rome were to hold certain territories on the Spanish coast.
• Likewise, we can cause a kind of immitation legionnaires reform should Rome take control of coastal cities in Asia Minor.

I say coastal cities because it is unlikely that any faction, player or computer, would take any settlements inland without at least taking a coastal settlement first.

There would need to be a counter-region based reform too, e.g. in the above, if Bactria was to take one of the Sarmatian territories north of Sogdiana or a Parthian territory east of Margiana then it would trigger their cavalry reforms.
Celtiberians would get their scutarii if they take a region in Africa or Italy.

I don't think the immitation legionnaries should occur if you are a faction that "should" get them but complately steamroll Rome. Why would they introduce the flexible Roman style if their own inflexible phalanx is superior anyway?

I am aware of the pains scripting this would cause...
Though I suppose once you've got a basic clause you can just copy&paste the rest whilst changing the odd region name.

[Mogan]

I agree with Carados. The only reason to implent a new system, is that it's superior to the system nowadays. Thus it should be reflected that these "late" units shouldn't be like Supermen towards the "early" units. A good commander can overcome most difficulties. Though, not all of course.

[Quinn Inuit]

I was going to say that I didn't think this would work until the meaning of the counter-region part hit me. That's quite clever.

One problem: I know how to test for who controls what with a script, but I don't know how to change recruitment using a script. Does anyone have any suggestions? I think the script is do-able, but I'm not sure how to do it.

[Caesar Augustus]

I've not the first clue about how to do the scripting, but I'm most intrigued by the unit lineups

[Carados]

I've no idea what do to about changing recruitment.

[Caesar Augustus]

I would've suggested perhaps tying it to an "invisible building" or something present in the territories which would be necessary to trigger the reform, but I think I may be misunderstanding the problem.

[Irenaeus]

This is exactly the way the EB guys have done it - there is a "hidden" building that is only buildable when the script triggers are met. You can then build this building and it then gives you access to various new troops (assuming you have the correct level of barracks, obviously!). This is a "Reform Marker" which cannot be demolished, and for some reforms (e.g. Marian) is added straight away, whereas for others it is added by the player as a "building" you build in the usual way.

In practical terms, this only lets you train new troops - to stop you training a certain type of troops then you will need to have a "new" barracks level available that will only let you train the new troops and not the old one. It is then up to the player/AI to decide whether they want the new troops or the old ones.

[Maurits]

Can't you ask someone who's done some coding to do this for you?

[Quinn Inuit]

Yeah, I think I'm going to need some help on these. I'll ask the RTR team for assistance. I know EB has done it, but I don't have the slightest idea how.

[Caesar Augustus]

Hi All,

Sorry for the epic thread resurrection!

I've had a bit of a think about this and I have a couple of thoughts.

1) Would traits be of any use as triggers for the script? I think some of the EB reforms have traits that do this, like for the Seleucids "fascinated by cataphracts" that appears after a general has lost a certain number of battles against armies that include cataphracts, then a few turns later a new barracks is available that allows their recruitment? I think that's how it works anyway.

2) I'm not entirely sure that the Scutarii are Roman inspired units if I'm honest. I think it's feasible that the Carthaginians (or at least the Barcids) may have reformed their Liby-Pheonician hoplites to use a more flexible fighting style based on experience against these troops rather than Iberian tribes reacting to it being used against them. However I'm no historian and will happily submit to the judgement of those who know what they're talking about.

[Carados]

1) Would traits be of any use as triggers for the script? I think some of the EB reforms have traits that do this, like for the Seleucids "fascinated by cataphracts" that appears after a general has lost a certain number of battles against armies that include cataphracts, then a few turns later a new barracks is available that allows their recruitment? I think that's how it works anyway.

Do you know anymore about that? Or anyone else for that matter? It could help immensely but I'm not sure of the actual triggers. How would a Seleucid general become fascinated by Cataphracts?

[Caesar Augustus]

Do you know anymore about that? Or anyone else for that matter? It could help immensely but I'm not sure of the actual triggers. How would a Seleucid general become fascinated by Cataphracts?

Voila, I came across this thread in the EB forum regarding their Seleucid cataphract reform. Posts 3 and 4 are the most helpful.

I got the trait name wrong, it's "Impressed by Kataphracts". Basically the general has lose a battle against an army with between 10 and 20% made up of cavalry (as the trait engine can't detect specific unit types), and in the battle he must lose at least 20% of the army and his bodyguard.

Another thought - with the "Imitation Legionary" type units, I think the reform probably ought be triggered, if possible, through encounters with any "Legionary" troops. For example, Pontus may not necessarily need contact with with Romans to realise the benefits of armoured swordsmen, thanks to encounters with the Galatians (a people that do use armoured swordsmen). What do you think?

[Sardaukar One]

I was about to say I saw some mod where the Seleucid family member picked up the trait "impressed by cataphracts" as described by CA.

The Seleucids had imitation legionaires at the Daphne parade. So they presumably had them at least a few years before.
I would imagine incorporating Roman armed troops stemmed from their defeat at Magnesia. And whenever the Seleucids incorporated this, I would imagine the Ptollies followed not long afterwards.

I don't know about Armenia or Pontus, but Deiotarus, a Galatian king, formed two legions from the Galatians. These troops were defeated by the Parthians when they invaded Asia Minor in 41 or 40BC. The survivors were eventually formed into one legion, which became Legio XII Deiotariana, named after, you guessed it, Deiotarus, the king who formed them. As I think he died in 40 BC, the Galatians based their imitation legions off the Marian legionaires. Not the republican ones.

After all the weapons taken from the Romans after Trasimene, Cannae, Trebia etc, etc, Hannibal did arm and train his troops in the Roman fashion. There would have been a lot of weapons and armour for him to use.

The Seleucids had companions as well as cataphracts. Just check the army lists for Magnesia to see. Plus I believe they are also included in the Daphne parade army lists also.

[Caesar Augustus]

The point I was attempting to make re the Pontic legionaries (albeit in a rather roundabout and backwards fashion ), was that if the army was exposed to armoured swordsmen using a flexible battle line then the King or his military advisors would probably institute a refit of the army for combat against that type of army for increased effectiveness. Like how the Romans switched from a phalanx to the manipular system based on some hefty defeats by the Samnites and Gauls.

I've also seen it argued around here that the imitation legions which appear before the Marian reform were probably based off the principes, as they were likely to be the more effective of the two sword armed components of the early legions, so for some (all?) factions that get copycat legions the Roman reform may not be necessary first?

[Carados]

Another thought - with the "Imitation Legionary" type units, I think the reform probably ought be triggered, if possible, through encounters with any "Legionary" troops. For example, Pontus may not necessarily need contact with with Romans to realise the benefits of armoured swordsmen, thanks to encounters with the Galatians (a people that do use armoured swordsmen). What do you think?

!!!!!

You've given me an idea.

Following on from the Seleucid cataphract trait thingy, what if...

The Romans have a trait that designates them as a user of these Legions (Ooo, the Tribune/Legate/Praetor/Consul is a prime candidate).

When certain factions fight a large battle and lose a large percentage of troops against the Romans (reforms don't occur if the current formation is superior) - they could potentially gain a trait "impressed by Legions" or something daft like that. Should this general then find himself in a settlement for whatever reason, a script could trigger the creation of a reform building that allows them to recruit "immitation legionaries".

All simple and easy.
Now comes the clever bit...

These reform buildings would give these factions a trait that indicates they are using immitation legionaries (or perhaps, a general gains it if he is in a settlement that recruits one). Should another faction get into a fight with these generals that use immitation legionaries, they too would gain the "impressed by Legions" trait and would subsequently trigger a reform of their own should they go back to a settlement or something.

Genius?


The Seleucids could therefore get in a scrap with the Romans, lose a large portion of troops and thus become impressed by the Roman legions. The general goes back to his cities and implements the reforms. The Seleucids then have immitation legionaries to use. Usage of these legionaries could then prompt Pontus, Armenia, the Ptollies etc. to follow suit should they encounter the Seleucid Legionaries in battle.

[Seleukos Nikator]

nice idea!
but what about the percentages? if they are high prized units, do the selecuids recruit them? (in order to get the 20% needed)
btw, is this trait flexible or is it hardcoded?

[Caesar Augustus]

nice idea!
but what about the percentages? if they are high prized units, do the selecuids recruit them? (in order to get the 20% needed)
btw, is this trait flexible or is it hardcoded?

I think they just need to suffer 20% casualties from a battle, as the game can't monitor the exact units used. It can, however monitor the proportion of cavalry and infantry in an army, as evidenced by how the Good Infantry Commander and how the Good Cavalry Commander traits work.

The trait is flexible I believe, as the EB team made this trait so they could have reforms.

[Seleukos Nikator]

that would be great!

[pannonian]

!!!!!

You've given me an idea.

Following on from the Seleucid cataphract trait thingy, what if...

The Romans have a trait that designates them as a user of these Legions (Ooo, the Tribune/Legate/Praetor/Consul is a prime candidate).

When certain factions fight a large battle and lose a large percentage of troops against the Romans (reforms don't occur if the current formation is superior) - they could potentially gain a trait "impressed by Legions" or something daft like that. Should this general then find himself in a settlement for whatever reason, a script could trigger the creation of a reform building that allows them to recruit "immitation legionaries".

All simple and easy.
Now comes the clever bit...

These reform buildings would give these factions a trait that indicates they are using immitation legionaries (or perhaps, a general gains it if he is in a settlement that recruits one). Should another faction get into a fight with these generals that use immitation legionaries, they too would gain the "impressed by Legions" trait and would subsequently trigger a reform of their own should they go back to a settlement or something.

Genius?


The Seleucids could therefore get in a scrap with the Romans, lose a large portion of troops and thus become impressed by the Roman legions. The general goes back to his cities and implements the reforms. The Seleucids then have immitation legionaries to use. Usage of these legionaries could then prompt Pontus, Armenia, the Ptollies etc. to follow suit should they encounter the Seleucid Legionaries in battle.

Could you explain the technical details of how this would work? I've always wanted to see how the impressed by cataphracts thing would work, but could never get my head round how a trait would affect the availability of a building, and so on.