Need pointers on economy

[Knonfoda]

Hey,

I keep reading these threads here about players with coastal settlements making vast sums of money (in the hundreds of thousands range) and would like to know what I am doing wrong, my total income as the Romani is 128K with an expenditure of roughly 113K, so I get 20-36K turnover per season, which isn't bad, but is nothing like the 100K + I hear on some threads.

I have attached my save game for anyone interested to have a look, and I would also like to say I do have a couple of full stack expensive armies around on my frontiers (one in Iberia, half a stack in Africa, one in Gaul, and one in Macedonia).

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

EDIT: Didn't manage to upload through forum, so used rapidshare instead:

http://rapidshare.com/files/345809489/Roma_I.sav.html

[zero911]

Checked your savegame. In my opinion you should these things:
1. Very first mean - raise taxes. Yours are either low or normal. In cities around your capital they can be and should be VERY HIGH
2. Build level 2 mines, not latifundias with are twice less expensive than mines but many times less effective than level 2 mines.
3. EVERY city must build some building - I noticed few idle cities. If you do not have enough money - choose to build cheaper buildings.
4. With your temples it is a TOTAL mess They are of too low level. And messy ones (you have any type of temples there - mars, ceres, ect... ). Best temple in my opinion is temple of jupiter. It has good law bonus +25 which does improve your income - it lowers the corruption level therefore you earn more.
5. Do not underestimate law improvement buildings - they DO improve your income level in cities which are far from your capital (by decreasing high corruption level there).
6. You totally forgot coliseums. This is the FIRST building which should be built in any city. Just in case. You get +5 happiness bonus plus ability to improve it by +30 in case of emergency. This building is cheap and takes only 6 turns to build It's good side is that you will not have to keep big garrisons in towns. In troubled towns you do keep troops in your very homeland, while I prefer them to be on border with enemy
7. Do not underestimate hapiness raising buildings - if you can raise taxes from low to a very high in a huge city and population is still happy - the difference will be... around +1000 per city

The rest is more or less ok.

[johnhughthom]

6. You totally forgot coliseums. This is the FIRST building which should be built in any city. Just in case. You get +5 happiness bonus plus ability to improve it by +30 in case of emergency. This building is cheap and takes only 6 turns to build It's good side is that you will not have to keep big garrisons in towns. In troubled towns you do keep troops in your very homeland, while I prefer them to be on border with enemy

Hmmm, there are many buildings that should be built before a Coliseum in my view, the 5 happiness can easily be gained much more cheaply and the loss to revenue from holding games more frequently is pretty much the oppposite of what the OP is looking for.

[Centrius]

I don't know what the Romani building tree looks like, as I've never played them in a campaign in the past year I played EB.

But I usually start off with Santitization and somekind of Drainage system thingy, which are very cheap and improve health + happiness. Which in turn will allow you to up your taxes most of the time.

After that go for ports, roads, markets and farms. That will boost the profit a city makes quite a bit. And mines ofcourse. Mines.

[Knonfoda]

Thanks Guys,

As I trying to play a 'historical' game my temples are a bit all over the place yes, I tend to be quite diverse in the deities I chose to please, and never destroy indigenous temples in the area I conquer to reflect the roman policy of religious freedom (mostly) and integration. So yes, I do have the odd temple of minerva, jupiter, juno and vesta lying around.

So far my main concern has been roads, markets, forums, ports, and level one mines where I can. I then follow this up with farms and growth buildings like sewers and baths and so on.

What do happiness buildings actually do for you other than allowing you to raise taxes without the happiness penalty? Do they actually add to income? This has so far been the reason I have avoided arenas and high level temples, they are expensive and for a 10-15% happiness boost I don't see the point.

I do have quite a bit of schools around, and am in the process of upgrading them to academies. Like I said, I want my game to follow a broadly historical pattern, so obviously these more 'hellenic/roman' higher forms of learning and government buildings would come much later after the basics, such as sewage, roads and markets, which is the cornerstone of roman engineering.

Still, I feel I should be making a lot more money, especially if the Romani are one of the richest (if not the richest) faction in the game, as some claim.

[Centrius]

Schools and Academies are usefull if you don't want your FM's to be stupid and ignorant. Academies also train your Diplomats IIRC.

And about the happiness buildings, I don't think they actually provide more income. But the higher level buildings (like the last level Temples you mentioned) usually give your FM's some nice traits, or improve the morale of trained troops in the city greatly. (In my Getai campaign there's one temple which gives +3 morale to trained troops in that settlement.) But other than that, I don't think the happiness buildings add to your profit.

And this hasn't really anything to do with the Romani campaign (unless you're going for world domination). But health buildings are additionaly useful in provinces in the east, as there's a chance that the plague comes knocking on your door. Never seen this happen, but heard of it. =)

But maybe if you have alot of useless stacks of armies around, try disbanding some, see if that improves your economy?

[Knonfoda]

Checked your savegame. In my opinion you should these things:
1. Very first mean - raise taxes. Yours are either low or normal. In cities around your capital they can be and should be VERY HIGH

Hey, I tried doing what you suggested, but my income only went up by 11K, which given the population decline penalty and the discontent, hardly seems worth it.

But maybe if you have alot of useless stacks of armies around, try disbanding some, see if that improves your economy?

Yeah, like I said, I like to keep it historical, and do what Rome did, which was pick one enemy/empire at a time. My intention was to attack Macedon and be at peace at all my other frontiers, thus only needing one/two stacks to attack Macedon. Seems like both the Arveni and the Ptolemaics took advantage of the situation and attacked me in the respective borders, result, I have had to create another two stacks to deal with the problem. Before that I was making 60-80K turnover. I have made peace with the gauls, and am in the process of doing so with Egypt, they just really seem to want Leptis Magna since I took if from the Carthaginians.

[Centrius]

Hmm, yeah. RTW AI, always a joy.

Are you using the Force Diplomacy mini-mod? That might help playing historical a bit. Since the AI tends to attack whoever is closest, and once they start attacking they usually won't stop. It's like you accidentally sat on a beehive and the bees won't stop chasing you. And jumping in the water ain't an option in RTW.

Anyway, if you aren't using the FD mod yet, try that to make peace with the Ptolemies. So you can disband the armies that are walking around there. Unless you want to conquer Egypt before you conquer the gauls, but that would be unhistorical. Amiright? =)

[zero911]

Knonfoda - as you see it worked By just raising taxes you made extra 11K without effort. And that is full legion - good to send anywere you need. The pop decline is not a problem. Cities with very high taxes still can grow up to 30 000 or more population. And as long as the city is not going to rebel it is fine. That is why you need hapiness buildings - the more the better. Of course you must built cheap ones first. The garrison must be at most one general and one cheapest available to hire unit. If you need more garrison to pacify town - do not raise taxes, it is not worth it.
And Centrius is right - if you want to have historical wars - you better download this force diplomacy mini mod. Once comp starts war - it will not end it... However it will be less difficult than to fight on multiple sides and decide which way to expand But since you enjoy historical expansion - it is a must for you then

Johnhughthom - coliseum is advised to build only for emergency. No need to hold games instantly there, unless the city is trying to go unruly, so it is very convenient to have it even if games are not needed yet. When empire is small - it will not be a problem, when it is huge - I see no other mean how in 6 turns add a happiness of +35. Games drain the coffers, but much less than garrisoning army, and much less than it costs to put down the uprising or even reconquer rebelling town. Frankly saying I have built a roman empire up to 179 provinces - crippled parhtians and fighting bactria now. And at least in 10 cities games are held constantly until I improve the situation with permanent hapiness buildings, then of course I stop the games to save the money.

[evenflowjimbo]

I always build roads and ports first. Yeah, and I raise my taxes to very high haha.

[Knonfoda]

Knonfoda - as you see it worked By just raising taxes you made extra 11K without effort. And that is full legion - good to send anywere you need. The pop decline is not a problem. Cities with very high taxes still can grow up to 30 000 or more population. And as long as the city is not going to rebel it is fine. That is why you need hapiness buildings - the more the better. Of course you must built cheap ones first. The garrison must be at most one general and one cheapest available to hire unit. If you need more garrison to pacify town - do not raise taxes, it is not worth it.
And Centrius is right - if you want to have historical wars - you better download this force diplomacy mini mod. Once comp starts war - it will not end it... However it will be less difficult than to fight on multiple sides and decide which way to expand But since you enjoy historical expansion - it is a must for you then

Thx, im just not sure its worth it, its not a lot of extra money and the happiness penalty I get for most cities means I will have to hire more cheap units to act as garrisons, which is counter productive.

I do use the force diplomacy mini mod, but to make it as realistic as possible I first defend my territory and maybe punish the attackers, and then force them to peace. Done with Gaul, but Egypt has some rather large stacks coming in my direction. In antiquity it would not be beneath certain countries and empires to take advantage of a situation or an ongoing war to target what they perceive to be the weaker side.

[johnhughthom]

Don't forget the benefits of client rulers, they can be expensive, 4000+, but they usually have at least 6 influence and can let you move your garrisoning army on within a year.

[Knonfoda]

Don't forget the benefits of client rulers, they can be expensive, 4000+, but they usually have at least 6 influence and can let you move your garrisoning army on with a year.

Thx, I usually hire them for newly conquered provinces. When they die off I add the province to my empire, to simulate the integration strategies of the romans. On a sidenote, the hired generals are not FM's are they, but what about any sons they have?

[Centrius]

Call them Eunuchs. But they don't have or 'produce' any relatives.

[Dan Rares]

Who can give me the force diplomacy for EB v1.1 ?

[Knonfoda]

My next strategy will probably be to build the mines as everybody has said, maybe one per turn and nothing else as that is all I can afford.

I usually find just building one building per turn a waste, but when they cost anywhere between 20-60 mnai its hard to build anything else. Im also at a stage where ports are like 20+, which is expensive. Alternatively might start a massive roadbuilding project with Highways which are only 4800.

[-iceblade^]

don't worry

soon you'll be swimming in money anyways. as others have said, raise taxes, build roads, ports, mines, markets, etc

also, don't forget to conquer Greece if you havent' already. once you do, you'll have tons of cash