Over-education

[Aetius]

I have noticed:

The government and general consensus is that people need more education, specifically college. Everyone needs to go to college, lets give government money to people so they can go back to college, lets increase class sizes, lets lower admission requirements for minorities, inflate grades so everyone can go to college, etc.

How is this beneficial to society, how does a bunch of people with college degrees improve our economy and as they often say "compete on a global scale"? Doesn't it just lower the standard, and devalue a degree and quality in general?

I thought upper level education was about quality not quantity.

You used to have to be smart and admittedly somewhat wealthier (but I support scholarships to counteract that) but now its like expected for everyone and IMO far too many idiots and bad degrees exist.

[Nietzsche]

Doesn't it just lower the standard, and devalue a degree and quality in general?

Yes. It also raises the cost of the degree (witness the latest UC Berkeley scandal). Eventually, the prices get so high (because of subsidy) that what ends up happening is every taxpayer is now paying for every other taxpayer's child's degree. So, we've gone from 12 years of government funded school to 16, the quality of which will surely match that of the original 12 years. We'll have a nation of people with very expensive and very worthless pieces of paper. It's why our immigration laws keep certain skilled laborers out. We can't compete.

[Nevins]

The problem is that the number of math/science majors are falling while the "Piece of Paper" degrees such as history and art are on the rise. I know from being a college freshman that many people don't see college as the place that you earn a degree for a job, but rather as a 4 year hiatus from responsibility. I am all for scholarships and such, I just believe that they need to be heavily weighted towards the math/sciences (for clarification I am a Physics major) because that is where we need graduates to compete effectively in the global market.

[Boer]

A college degree adds tens of thousands of dollars to a man's income over his life, which he then uses to send his son to college.

[El Brujo]

Yes. It also raises the cost of the degree (witness the latest UC Berkeley scandal). Eventually, the prices get so high (because of subsidy) that what ends up happening is every taxpayer is now paying for every other taxpayer's child's degree. So, we've gone from 12 years of government funded school to 16, the quality of which will surely match that of the original 12 years. We'll have a nation of people with very expensive and very worthless pieces of paper. It's why our immigration laws keep certain skilled laborers out. We can't compete.

I guess this means grad school is the new college. Undergrad is now little more than four more years of highschool. The lib arts classes are definitely at a highschool level now for the most part.

College is basically a desperate attempt by the middle class to protect their childrens' status. No one wants to go to the cocktail party at the country club and be the only one whose kid is an electrician. Better a degree in basket weaving. There's also working class blue collar people who think a college degree, any college degree, will magically give their children the upper middle class life they didn't have.

[Nietzsche]

I guess this means grad school is the new college. Undergrad is now little more than four more years of highschool. The lib arts classes are definitely at a highschool level now for the most part.

College is basically a desperate attempt by the middle class to protect their childrens' status. No one wants to go to the cocktail party at the country club and be the only one whose kid is an electrician. Better a degree in basket weaving. There's also working class blue collar people who think a college degree, any college degree, will magically give their children the upper middle class life they didn't have.

For now, there is statistical evidence to conclude that a college degree does on average provide more income over the course of one's life. However, that income difference has been declining. Draw your own conclusions as to why.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Whoa, inflating grades, If I understand you correctly is a horrible idea. Increasing government loans is on the government agenda not inflating grades. Funding for community colleges is also likely to increase making tuition cheaper.

Obama has also talked about hiring better teachers in HS, its well known we have a shortage of reliable teachers.

[blackwatersix]

So that's the case now with the US tertiary educational system? That's sad, 'cause that's mainly what we have here. Low-quality institutions offering "Bachelor's Degrees" and "Associate Degrees" in every field imaginable. Even if it's complete BS and teaches the same stuff you'd learn in a vocational school. In my opinion people should re-learn the value of being a vocational course graduate of something they love instead of going to college because parents see it as a way of "preserving status" or "magical ticket from poverty".

If you continue on this course, yeah; grad shall become the old undergrad... like it is here. When everyone has a degree, then no one does.

Don't underestimate the social sciences degrees though, they're still pretty important. Man is a social being after all.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Just depends on what your going to use the degree for. Its not a magic ticket in and of itself but an art degree for job seekers in an art museum is important.

[Gaidin]

I have noticed:

The government and general consensus is that people need more education, specifically college. Everyone needs to go to college, lets give government money to people so they can go back to college, lets increase class sizes, lets lower admission requirements for minorities, inflate grades so everyone can go to college, etc.

How is this beneficial to society, how does a bunch of people with college degrees improve our economy and as they often say "compete on a global scale"? Doesn't it just lower the standard, and devalue a degree and quality in general?

I thought upper level education was about quality not quantity.

You used to have to be smart and admittedly somewhat wealthier (but I support scholarships to counteract that) but now its like expected for everyone and IMO far too many idiots and bad degrees exist.

As it stands the vast majority of careers have become highly specialized and require specialized teaching or training. High school on its own is a very general education set. College gets much more specialized once you declare and pursue a major.

[bleach]

As it stands the vast majority of careers have become highly specialized and require specialized teaching or training.

Oh and this is total crap by the way, undergraduate majors actually have quite little influence in what field most people wind up working in unless you go on to grad school.

[Gaidin]

Oh and this is total crap by the way, undergraduate majors actually have quite little influence in what field most people wind up working in unless you go on to grad school.

Yes there are fields that are not picky in what the degree is, but getting there without the training or teaching is damned hard anyways.

[Axeman]

Having a history major isn't a "real" degree?

Great now I have to find something else to teach...

[Nevins]

Having a history major isn't a "real" degree?

Great now I have to find something else to teach...

Apologies if I didn't clarify what I meant.

I was (and still wish) that I could be a history education major, as that is where my true passion lies. The problem is that there are countless other people who either 1. Are history ed as well or 2. Graduated with a history degree, found it was more or less worthless on its own, and went back to school to get certified.

I am not trying to put down your field of study, just making it quite plain that there are far too many people involved in History for the amount of jobs that there are. I remember that our AP Government teacher in HS was telling us that our HS got over 300 apps from history teachers, and had 0 openings, and they have not had an opening for the last 4 years. Its an incredibly tough subject to find a job in. Physics, on the other hand, is easy to find a position because it involves math, which seems to be Kryptonite to the average American student.

And as too the boosted income effect of a college degree, you have to weigh that against the crushing debt that you may get yourself into from getting that degree, plus the income you forfeit from not working during those years.

[Phier]

Having a history major isn't a "real" degree?

Great now I have to find something else to teach...

If the primary employment opportunity of a field is teaching that field, it can be argued its not a real degree.

The subject mater may be important in the case of history, or farcical in the case of womans studies, but the degree itself is of limited practical use.

[Gaidin]

If the primary employment opportunity of a field is teaching that field, it can be argued its not a real degree.

Teaching is the easiest job to get with any degree. It comes down to whether the person is a teacher by calling or by dayjob to pay the bills. It hardly makes any degree 'unreal'.

[Phier]

Teaching is the easiest job to get with any degree. It comes down to whether the person is a teacher by calling or by dayjob to pay the bills. It hardly makes any degree 'unreal'.

The issue is if I have an engineering degree, odds are I will apply to companies who need engineers.

If I have a history degree, odds are I will apply to companies that need people with a basic education.

Unless you PLAN on teaching, these types of degrees are more like a 1950's highschool diploma, than a college degree.

[Gaidin]

If I have a history degree, odds are I will apply to companies that need people with a basic education.

Unless you PLAN on teaching, these types of degrees are more like a 1950's highschool diploma, than a college degree.

History has long been known as a research field. Along with Math, Physics, and other similar fields. Teaching is the easiest job to get with a Bachelor's Degree, however once it can be done a lot usually get a higher degree and do research. Amusingly enough, they teach at the university to boot. There's a reason that those degrees are so easily associated with teaching, in spite of the core inspiration behind the fields. And it's not anything special, and doesn't take away from the value of that degree.

[Shaun]

The issue is if I have an engineering degree, odds are I will apply to companies who need engineers.

If I have a history degree, odds are I will apply to companies that need people with a basic education.

Unless you PLAN on teaching, these types of degrees are more like a 1950's highschool diploma, than a college degree.

You can't really compare the two degrees against each other like you just have. Engineering is a very technical field and degrees in it are usually very job orientated, since it's a job orientated subject. There aren't really any large companies specifically looking to employ historians to do history orientated work.

That doesn't mean the degree is any less valuable: it teaches very important skills, like essay writing, research, etc.

[Thorn777]

Having a history major isn't a "real" degree?

Great now I have to find something else to teach...

In Holland most people with history-degrees end up in journalism, which is over here is also an degree in its own right.

In Holland the history-degree does teach the most important aspects to be a quality journalist(writing, fact research etc).

Still plan to move to Holland btw?