Is there anything left in ETW for me?

[EmperorJulian]

I spent a long time debating if I should post this question, and if this was the right forum to do it. I'm basically in the process of deciding if the Total War franchise has anything left to offer me. I haven't played ETW since 1.0 and nothing in the litany of patches that has come out has done anything to convince me to return to the series I've enjoyed since the original Medieval Total War. The game has sit silently on my shelf, collecting dust and frankly I haven't known what to do with it. I'd like to make use of my purchase, to at least justify my investment, but I can't say if that's a worthwhile endeavour at this point, or not. So, I figured I might as well pose this dilemma to all of you. Yes, I can read about mods and patches on my own (and I have done a bit of that), but since my orientation as a TW player is outside the mainstream, It's not as simple a question to answer as one might think.

As some of you may be aware, my interest in the Total War franchise has -always- centered on the so called "minor factions." Yes, I do at times use the big boys for one reason or another; I can remember a very rewarding campaign in M2TW as the French that I completed several years ago, as an example. But, those exceptions aside, I prefer to stay with the little guy. In past Total War iterations, this has been no problem. A few tweaks to text files and a few custom modifications on my own and I could pretty much play as any faction I choose. This has lead to some rewarding and challenging campaigns. I remember playing and succeeding as Dacia in RTW, abandoning my homeland and tearing through Greece and Southern Italy before facing the inevitable rebellions one faces as a barbarian power. I also recall using Savoy in early iterations of ETW, making myself an Italian regional power then making peace with Spain (by exchanging Sardinia for Florida) and using St. Augustine as a springboard into the Americas. All good memories to be sure.

In fact, it was one of the utmost disappointments in my life when I heard ETW's minor faction lineup would be "locked" from the start, and would require relatively extensive modding to be made playable. I remember debating early versions of the faction map and being very interested in the possibility of taking Savoy and Bavaria, in particular, to greatness. Well that didn't happen on the day of release (obviously) but in time the passive AI of 1.0 made minors relatively playable and I enjoyed not being besieged by constant warfare. I like picking my targets on my own terms; of course it didn't hurt that expansion penalties at least back then did not get applied to territory taken from non-major powers. But I digress. I set the game aside way back in early 2009 to wait for patches and to see how things would progress. This is where things started to go horribly wrong (for me), as the AI was made even more aggressive and unrealistic over time. I realize I'm not in the majority when it comes to TW players but since minors are my bread and butter, and since there are no "rebel" territories in this game, this in of itself presented a major problem. If I'm going to get steamrolled by France in 3 turns as Wurttemberg, what difference does it make if I can use the faction or not?

I it also disturbed me as I heard of the melee bug, the terminator-juggernaut of the Marathas and the continued propensity of the AI to not make peace with itself, thus ensuring AI factions have crippled economies from start to finish. At any rate, much has changed from 1.0 to 1.5 and after running some test campaigns as some minor factions (post 1.5), and getting DOW'ed within the first 10 turns or so by very nasty super powers, I'm left to wonder just what I can do with this game. I know BAI has been a consistent complaint, as has diplomacy, but what has really changed? And is it any better than the original? Comprehensively speaking, I can not answer that question.

Naturally, it is unfortunate that all the news I got on ETW's development turned me off of the game entirely (It's certainly not what I expected), but that's what happened. I am open to the possibility however that I've simply been misinformed. Or that the information I have is incomplete. I guess that's the crux of why I'm posting here. If it is possible to get an ETW experience that includes the following:

A) Playable Minor Factions that aren't immediately steamrolled.
B) Fixed Minor Faction Unit Rosters: (Dagestan, I'm looking at you...)
C) Curtailed Maratha expansion - i.e. no Orange blob in Sweden.
D) AI that makes peace with itself and with the player.
E) And, a reasonable level of dunderheadness with the BAI

Then, I might still be able to put ETW to good use.

Oh and yes, I have tried Darthmod, excellent work, but no minor factions, thus, not quite what I'm looking for.

Anyway, please note I don't have unlimited time for modding on my own, if I did, this might not be such a big issue. I wish "fix it yourself" was an option but at this point in my life, if its not fixed or patched elsewhere, I'm just going to have to let it drop. "Most modable" TW to date indeed. I could actually use that as a tagline, but once again I digress. I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say.

Note: I am aware there are mods to unlock all factions (even emergent ones) but I've found chatter both in this forum and the gameplay forum on minor factions to be relatively sparse (even at the .org), and often outdated. I was looking up modding information on putting minor factions into the prestige counter for ETW (for example) and the advice was so old it doesn't seem to work anymore. Thus, I didn't feel reading past threads was getting me all the (current) info I needed.

[Jihada]

Yes I'd recommend the darthmod custom campaign .I just managed to get the victory provinces for Savoy by 1799. I really enjoyed it and playing darthmod ultimate campaign with Sweden atm, blue blob in India,There is a half strength Maratha mod as well to limit Maratha expansion.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1362

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Humble Warrior]

Good post.

[Lord Justin]

I'm the same, I like the small underdog factions. I like building my empire how I want, not being handed a pre-made empire to jump into. So I downloaded the mod to unlock minor factions. The problem is, the computer gets confused sometimes, and I am forced to end my campaigns because of glitches, such as freezing on the AI turn (not an actual freeze, it just says they are taking their turn but never completes it). These things have happened with every minor faction I've tried playing as, meaning there's almost no replayability left for me. I get halfway through a campaign and start to become powerful and then I'm forced to abandon it. I could play Prussia or Sweden for the umpteenth time, but it'd really have been a lot better if CA weren't complacent enough to leave out the small factions.

[Bloodlut]

A very good post that raises many good points, but when it comes down to it, the only person who can answer your question.... is you.
Look deep into your soul, into the very depths of yourself, only you can discover what you seek. The task will be grim and difficult...

But i have no idea if ETW has anything left for you... I also have been having troubles trying to play as the little guys, and have given up till a better mod is made, and if not then i will do what i do with every game. Play it when i feel like it.

[EmperorJulian]

Well I've been fortunate, I suppose, in that i never experienced any of the truly game breaking bugs that seemed to plague so many people with ETW, even going back to 1.0. And of course, Bloodlut is quite right. I've got to decide if ETW (or Total War in general, going forward) is going to provide me with a gaming experience I actually want. I know Europa Universalis III is a good game that provides good strategic depth, but in the past I always considered Total War complimentary to that. With TW I could play battles and win heroic victories and do the tactical stuff that EU3 couldn't provide. So it would be unfortunate to have to bail out on one half of the equation, but if I can't do what I want to do, there may be no other option.

Jihada, I thought Darthmod did -not- support minor factions, wouldn't additional modding be required to get them to work? I'm aware that even now getting the fog of war bug fixed is a fairly complicated procedure if you want to do it yourself. Perhaps I didn't see all there was to see in Darthmod so let me know if I should give it another try, I did hear it helped in reducing the Maratha destructo-brigade from running all over the map. That said, I recall when I tried using Morocco, before Spain/France declared war, I couldn't build a single piece of artillery. I'm used to playing factions with small unit rosters, Scotland from M2TW comes to mind, but this is just ridiculous. I'd like to "fix it" of course, but not only do I not know how, I don't know if I'm really inclined to do so. Now I know, in ETW there are some "minor factions" that get attention, Denmark, Portugal, even Persia come to mind. But really those factions are minor more by a design choice, rather than actual size or importance during the period. Persia was actually a quasi-major player in European political affairs during the War of the Polish Succession, since Persia's war with the Ottoman's kept them busy while Augustus III was put into place. But of course I prefer factions even more "minor" than that, Savoy in particular is one of my favorites and I'm really not sure even they qualify as "minor" according to the politics of the day. Minor in size but not influence and capacity for self interest, I don't think in anyone in Europe trusted the Savoyards to not change sides at least once during a wayr.

That said, by far ETW has treated the minors worse than any previous release (well besides Shogun, I never played that one, so I wouldn't know), and I've also been intrigued by how little has been done to fix them (at least as far as I know) over the time since ETW came out. Well it's good to see that I'm not entirely alone here, hopefully I can find some fixes I can apply and thus make things a bit better for me, cheers for now.

[Chyeaaaa111]

Darth mod is your only hope

[Jihada]

Darthmod CUSTOM CAMPAIGN, all minors unlocked .Finished Savoy campaign with it. recommended.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[aeoleron9]

The unlocking/FoW/prestige stuff are all easy to deal with(I believe you get prestige when you change the faction status from minor to major in startpos, before campaign starts). I think your main complaint is that minors are easily wiped.

Well here's the deal, they SHOULD be. The only reason the minors could survive that long before is due to AI incompetence. Would you really prefer AIs that do nothing and wait for you to conquer them? I much prefer a dynamic campaign where the AI expands and devours enemy lands, cause they are more challenging to beat.

That doesn't mean all minors deserve to die before 1705. The minors are supposed to be weak against a major, that's why they need allies. Even now in 1.5's agressive campaign, I see minors surviving long into 1750s because they formed strong alliances with their neighbors and major factions. You say Wurttemburg gets wiped by France? Then why didn't you ally with them first? Or perhaps ally with Spain, that'll really piss them off. What you really should watch out for is the bloody GB, because if you're a minor with a shore they'll always be eager to dump a full stack in your lands.

[EmperorJulian]

aeoleron, you've drastically oversimplified things here. And your mindset illustrates precisely why the 18th century is precisely the -wrong- time for a Total War game to take place. During the 18th century it was, as a rule, exceedingly DIFFICULT to conquer and annex minor factions in Europe. Just ask Austria. The Austrian Empire had completely occupied Bavaria, and they were unable to conquer or annex the land to their own dominions. If real life had followed the Total War method, Bavaria would have ceased to be an independent entity long before Napoleon or German unification. If real life followed the Total War model, Savoy could never have existed, as parts of that country, including Savoy itself were conquered and held by foreign powers during this period as well. My complaint is not that minors are easily wiped out, I only played a few brief illustrative campaigns to see what the mega-aggressive AI tendencies would do to minor factions. As I feared, the AI declared war within 8-12 turns, typically. I'm one of the -only- people, I'm quite certain, that preferred the passive, more in-line with reality 1.0 AI. It certainly had its problems, like not prosecuting wars it started, but it was at least true to the age.

The "minors should be wiped out easily" mentality simply does not fit, at all, with 18th century warfare. This isn't the age of the Roman Republic, it's not the middle ages, it's not even the 15th century. Why CA ever thought the total war franchise was compatible with 18th century warfare I will never know. The 18th century had lots of wars, I can think of quite a few off the top of my head, but most of them didn't involve radical, fundamental changes in the geographic makeup of Europe either. New France was a big loss to the French, but that was in the New World. And the translation of the Spanish Netherlands, Naples and Sicily to Austria basically just switched out one foreign overlord for another in Italy. One has to get to 1789 and the French revolution, and later to Napoleon for big tracts of land to actually start changing hands. Like I said, the setting just never made sense to me.

More to the point, I'm dissatisfied with the -entire- development process of ETW, and I'm really contemplating whether or not the franchise has moved on to greener pastures. If it's time for me, to give it up. There are alternatives I can utilize of course, but the whole point of my post was to open a dialogue about what the game still has to offer; not so much to complain that it's "too hard." I'm continuing doing research and maybe there might be some modding I could do myself. I'm familiar with Darthmod though for the ultimate edition I'm concerned my computer wont handle the extra stuff. I'm just at the threshold for things playing smoothly as it is. As for the minor to major change in the starpos file, I've attempted that and failed to achieve my result, perhaps I changed the wrong value, I'll have to check into it. At any rate thanks for the replies of course.

[aeoleron9]

Oh I agree that the total war mentality doesn't work in 18th century, people weren't exactly conquering europe back then. Although, in my experience with 1.5, the AIs aren't exactly doing that either. It's already a huge effort for them to conquer a minor, what with the pathfinding problems, the hometown advantage, and the resistance after they conquered it. If you'd played a few more turns you'd see the minors actually get on pretty well if they strke some good allies and didn't do anything stupid. In fact I'd say ETW is probably the one TW game that moves slowest in terms of conquest, cause of all the limitations and diplomacy maneuvers you can now pull.

And that brings me to another point: If the campaign is not moving to your liking, you could always interfere. I too prefer a more realistic campaign over a classical Total War conquest, so if something grossly inaccurate was about to happen I just step in. For example if France was about to bite it because Savoy got lucky with autocal, I'd attack the Savoyards to take some heat off them. Of course, if France gets too big, I'd step in too. And I try to play powers against each other while I watch on. Even the harsh victory conditions, which were usually very unhistoric, I could always make them my protectorates instead of carving out a huge unreal empire.

My point is, if there's any TW campaign that you can play as realistic as you want, this is it. The diplomacy is the best, and the CAI, I'd venture, is also the best in the series. Just don't expect your huge neighbor to leave you alone if you're a priority-target human player and has no allies and no army to speak of. Deal out preemptive strikes. Ally with their allies so they can't touch you. Trick the dumb CAI with a bait army and take their unguarded region. There are all sorts of tricks you can pull with a minor. Not to mention all the mods that flesh out minors out there. Honestly I don't know what's the problem.

Truth is if you're complaining about BAI or GB being trigger-happy, I'd have no argument. But saying that ETW pisses on minors and is another Total Conquest fest? No. That's the one thing ETW didn't do wrong IMO.

[Slaists]

Try multi-player campaign. It is beta and buggy. Still, playing the campaign against a human (preferrably on VH campaign difficulty) gives the game a completely different feel. For one, there is no more winning against impossible odds on the battlefield (your human opponent will take all advantage of the AI's troops to hurt you), which slows down the campaign expansion tremendously.

[EmperorJulian]

aeoleron, you've made some good points there, and I actually agree with much of what you said. The problem is I haven't played ETW since 1.0, and now that I've come back to research the stuff I want, I'm finding the comprehensive information I need to be much harder to find than I'd like. I read both twcenter and totalwar.org and there just -aren't- that many threads about true minor-nations. And there are no strat-guides either over at the org. Much of the information I find on minors (again with the exception of Denmark, Portugal and the Mughals) is often very outdated, and deals with patches previous to 1.5. I have also yet to find a mod that deals fully and completely with minors. There are some good mods out there, very good mods, and a number of mods that unlock all factions and what not, all good stuff. But I'm finding that the minors need more than just an unlock. Morocco again, as a favorite faction of mine, can't build cannons at all, and they get afghan hillmen too, for some reason. I've found a tutorial on -adding- a unit to another faction, but I've found nothing on removing and or adding multiple units to factions. I'm still looking though.

If I'd been able to find all the info I needed I wouldn't have had to post at all, to be honest. So that's really the problem aeoleron, simply that I wasn't getting the info I need and I thought possible others out there might have that information at hand. If, for example, I've been looking in the wrong places or missing the information entirely. Also, to be fair, in my Morocco test campaign I did have a full stack on hand, however Spain AND France attacked together, as the French had a ton of units in Gibraltar and I had not the money to build a big fleet to contest the opening to the Mediterranean. It's possible I've been unlucky, it does happen. I also like to shape rather than conquer; back in RTW I'd often get involved in translating minor nations from one place to another, in one instance I had Britain in Arabia, while the Isles had been conquered by the Germans. Like I said we seem to see eye to eye. I'm just quite behind the times too.

[Turbo]

ETW is a dead horse that CA has abandoned. Even Darth can't fix the horrible sieges with the dumb grappling hooks. Time for you to move it to a dusty bookshelf. The TW series has changed for the worse.

[Candelarius]

I spent a long time debating if I should post this question, and if this was the right forum to do it. I'm basically in the process of deciding if the Total War franchise has anything left to offer me. I haven't played ETW since 1.0 and nothing in the litany of patches that has come out has done anything to convince me to return to the series I've enjoyed since the original Medieval Total War. The game has sit silently on my shelf, collecting dust and frankly I haven't known what to do with it. I'd like to make use of my purchase, to at least justify my investment, but I can't say if that's a worthwhile endeavour at this point, or not. So, I figured I might as well pose this dilemma to all of you. Yes, I can read about mods and patches on my own (and I have done a bit of that), but since my orientation as a TW player is outside the mainstream, It's not as simple a question to answer as one might think...[snipped]...

I understand your position perfectly, Emperor Julian. I've been a Total War fan for many, many years. I'm one of those that recalls fondly buying Shogun off the shelf when it was first released. I've played all the games since then (except Alexander) and all the major mods. I even participated in, and created, some popular major mods of my own. M2TW, in my opinion, was the pinnacle of Total War development, although it, admittedly, needed extensive modding to make it such (again, my opinion).

But, the complete and total disappointment that ETW turned out to be, and the shocking lack of concern by the developers and weak-noodled explanations about why they can't fix it, really has turned me off to the franchise. ETW, "out of the box", was a pretty good game, with some minor annoyances. But each successive patch only made the game worse and worse. Currently, with all the DLC content and patches installed, I now cannot play with anti-aliasing turned on (or the game locks up), in-game FMV sequences stutter and are unwatchable, the sounds cuts in-and-out at random, and the melee bug is so utterly absurd (and historically inaccurate, to say the least) it destroys the game. The developers love to blame my problems on system conflicts and system spec issues, but, this completely ignores the fact the game worked with NONE of the above issues when I purchased it...and all the other recent games I've purchased play fine.

Creative Assembly's answer to the ETW problem, which amazingly they acknowledge in their blogs (and even admit to being embarrassed when the game first came out...they should be more embarrassed now), is to create an expansion pack and....droll roll....another game (which looks like an expansion pack to me) based on the same engine, without fixing ETW at all. I have lost all respect for this franchise at this point. To create a second game for their new engine, which looks very much like the first game, without fixing the first, shows their lack of passion for this franchise and a shift in their company's values. I'm afraid to see what the future holds for the Total War franchise.

What does ETW hold for me? Like you said, I don't even know what to do with it anymore. I've uninstalled it in disgust, but I can't sell it, because it is tied to my Steam account. I don't want to toss it, because I spent 70 dollars on it...so it sits on my shelf collecting dust (not really, my wife dusts it, but, that's beside the point). What does Total War hold for me? Not much anymore. There's another great franchise out there, devoted to historical strategy games, and I'm finding myself increasingly moving to that gaming platform instead of Total War. Which is sad.

At this point, I guess I could say I'm an ex-Total War fan. Creative Assembly, I'm sure, couldn't care less...which is painfully obvious, and my entire point.

[Sol Invictus]

If ETW were even as moddable as the earlier TW games it would reside on my hardrive for years. Sadly, it will die an early death. I can't believe that CA has driven a stake through the heart of what could have been a classic.

[Humble Warrior]

I understand your position perfectly, Emperor Julian. I've been a Total War fan for many, many years. I'm one of those that recalls fondly buying Shogun off the shelf when it was first released. I've played all the games since then (except Alexander) and all the major mods. I even participated in, and created, some popular major mods of my own. M2TW, in my opinion, was the pinnacle of Total War development, although it, admittedly, needed extensive modding to make it such (again, my opinion).

But, the complete and total disappointment that ETW turned out to be, and the shocking lack of concern by the developers and weak-noodled explanations about why they can't fix it, really has turned me off to the franchise. ETW, "out of the box", was a pretty good game, with some minor annoyances. But each successive patch only made the game worse and worse. Currently, with all the DLC content and patches installed, I now cannot play with anti-aliasing turned on (or the game locks up), in-game FMV sequences stutter and are unwatchable, the sounds cuts in-and-out at random, and the melee bug is so utterly absurd (and historically inaccurate, to say the least) it destroys the game. The developers love to blame my problems on system conflicts and system spec issues, but, this completely ignores the fact the game worked with NONE of the above issues when I purchased it...and all the other recent games I've purchased play fine.

Creative Assembly's answer to the ETW problem, which amazingly they acknowledge in their blogs (and even admit to being embarrassed when the game first came out...they should be more embarrassed now), is to create an expansion pack and....droll roll....another game (which looks like an expansion pack to me) based on the same engine, without fixing ETW at all. I have lost all respect for this franchise at this point. To create a second game for their new engine, which looks very much like the first game, without fixing the first, shows their lack of passion for this franchise and a shift in their company's values. I'm afraid to see what the future holds for the Total War franchise.

What does ETW hold for me? Like you said, I don't even know what to do with it anymore. I've uninstalled it in disgust, but I can't sell it, because it is tied to my Steam account. I don't want to toss it, because I spent 70 dollars on it...so it sits on my shelf collecting dust (not really, my wife dusts it, but, that's beside the point). What does Total War hold for me? Not much anymore. There's another great franchise out there, devoted to historical strategy games, and I'm finding myself increasingly moving to that gaming platform instead of Total War. Which is sad.

At this point, I guess I could say I'm an ex-Total War fan. Creative Assembly, I'm sure, couldn't care less...which is painfully obvious, and my entire point.

Couldn`t agree more. My history mirrors yours and you have a good attitude too. You made the mod as good as it needed to be and left it perfect. Your mod (and occasionally Bossdave`s) were the only mod I ever needed for MTW2. I have even spoken to you before in the good old days (under another name).

I sense your sadness and disappoint because it mirrors mine own. years of loyalty crushed by the sudden turn and change of CA. Terrible.

I am sad to say that I am, alas, an ex-fan now, but again, CA couldn`t care less.

[Jihada]

I agree that the 18th century was hardly full of large conquests.Prussia only gained 2 of these provinces in the whole century. But it's just a game and I've had fun playing the mods. NTW might be better than some are expecting if CA have learnt something from the disappointing state of vanilla ETW. Otherwise I'll go back to Europa Barbarorum and Broken Crescent/Stainless Steel mods.

[Imperator of Rome]

I agree that the 18th century was hardly full of large conquests.Prussia only gained 2 of these provinces in the whole century. But it's just a game and I've had fun playing the mods. NTW might be better than some are expecting if CA have learnt something from the disappointing state of vanilla ETW. Otherwise I'll go back to Europa Barbarorum and Broken Crescent/Stainless Steel mods.

You should. CA just released an DLC for ETW while saying they're abandoning patching ETW. Go play those mods where the people making at least give a damn about their bugs.

[-iceblade^]

I agree that the 18th century was hardly full of large conquests.Prussia only gained 2 of these provinces in the whole century. But it's just a game and I've had fun playing the mods. NTW might be better than some are expecting if CA have learnt something from the disappointing state of vanilla ETW. Otherwise I'll go back to Europa Barbarorum and Broken Crescent/Stainless Steel mods.

i've already done that

the game is too buggy, and unstable. i mean, after all this time it still plays like a beta, and can still crash when i merge armies.

this title was a slap in the face to those of us who preordered, and believed that they used aSteam to help deliver patches better and quicker... and to imagine they delayed it, even. and to think that they can still put out DLC and thesse extra units, without bothering to fix the game's underlying issues...