NAVAL MODDING

[izzi]

I realy don't now what the problem is. Normaly al vertexes are assigned to a group correctly. did you tryed to look at the model that i send to you? So the problem is at line 6138 and line 4726? Do you now what they are?

[izzi]

So basically you want a completely new converter, and the only simple part is that it's possible to use KnightErrant's converter as documentation for the format.
And I don't really know if there's even a format we could export to and back (back is especially difficult part), as you can already see from these problems.

I doubt I'd have time for that kind of project anytime soon, sorry.

To bad,still thanks to help.

[wangrin]

Yes, I have had a look to your model, but didn't find anything that could look "strange".
Of course, I didn't have checked all vertex groups nor all comments.

The error message seems to point out a problem with meshes (vertex group).
Something goes wrong when the script try to convert one mesh but I don't know what, at least, it's what I suspect.


Maybe could you try to start with the sloop and add one new mesh and then try to convert it.
If it work, it will mean that adding vertex group is not a problem.

Could you separate new vertex groups from original ones in your model ?
Then, it could be possible to test :

• converting the model but without new vertex group to be sure the base is sane
• converting the model adding vertex groups one after another to try to find what meshes are a problem.

It's a boring process, but I have no other ideas.

[izzi]

Well,i alredy tested to convert it back from fbx without putting new vertex. And that worked. Only it sayes that the bow_wave has lesser then 40 vertex. But it converted to rigid_naval_model. Offcourse copy/paste the comments is quite a boring process. But i was alredy going to do the second test,the one you sayed. If there was only a converter that doesn't erase the comments when you export, or one for UUW3D to import back as rigid_naval_model. The thing is that rigid_naval_model is just a beta version as it say. So its not the finiched version

[izzi]

Ooh yeah, there is another thing. Some ships can't be converted to ms3d. Like all the 3deck100 ships,not one of them can be converted. Also the 4deck120 the ship_rigid_naval_model (the british,french,.....ships yes)

[izzi]

What is actualy sloop_ao? Because i can see that it apears in every comment?

[izzi]

I just tested the second part. I put one compound extra on the brig model and on the comment i put also a new texture. And it works. So my theory here is, you can add details or new compounds (maybe even add damage_panel?), you can even add new textures. But you can't delete an existing compound. That's what i did,and maybe that's why it didn't convert. It also doesn't matter how you name the compound (or group,or whatever,.....) as long as you don't change the name in the comment. Because from there it takes they information to use in game. here is the test model wangrin test_model_brig.zip the new compund is at group 29. Also,you have to copy/paste the model comment. Now when you finish a model (make it as a new ship), do you have to make also a the animation of it? Because i can see,when i open the animation file with UUW3D, that there are also compunds and damage panels and it uses textures. What do you thinck? Do you thinck also that i can make a new damage_panel texture? (like for example i name it damage_panel_04)

[izzi]

imesh = 84, (min,max) = 23875, 23882
imesh = 85, (min,max) = 23883, 23890
imesh = 86, (min,max) = 23891, 23898
imesh = 87, (min,max) = 23899, 23906
imesh = 88, (min,max) = 23907, 23914
imesh = 89, (min,max) = 23915, 23922
imesh = 90, (min,max) = 23923, 23930
imesh = 91, (min,max) = 23931, 23938
imesh = 92, (min,max) = 23939, 23946
imesh = 93, (min,max) = 23947, 23954
imesh = 94, (min,max) = 23955, 23962
imesh = 95, (min,max) = 23963, 23970
imesh = 96, (min,max) = 23971, 23978
imesh = 97, (min,max) = 23979, 23986
imesh = 98, (min,max) = 23987, 23994
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imesh = 108, (min,max) = 24067, 24074
imesh = 109, (min,max) = 24075, 24082
imesh = 110, (min,max) = 24083, 24090
imesh = 111, (min,max) = 24091, 24098
imesh = 112, (min,max) = 24099, 24106
imesh = 113, (min,max) = 24107, 24114
imesh = 114, (min,max) = 24115, 24122
imesh = 115, (min,max) = 24123, 24130
imesh = 116, (min,max) = 24131, 24138
imesh = 117, (min,max) = 24139, 24146
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imesh = 120, (min,max) = 24163, 24170
imesh = 121, (min,max) = 24171, 24178
imesh = 122, (min,max) = 24179, 24186
imesh = 123, (min,max) = 24187, 24194
imesh = 124, (min,max) = 24195, 24202
imesh = 125, (min,max) = 24203, 24210
imesh = 126, (min,max) = 24211, 24248
imesh = 127, (min,max) = 24249, 24286
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Error making meshes, the bowmeshes don't have 40 verts!
Error making meshes, the bowmeshes don't have 40 verts!
Conversion to .rigid_naval_model complete...

[wangrin]

supportDo you have test to remove one compound mesh and then convert model back to rigid_naval_model to confirm that this is a problem ?
You can also test to add a damage_pannel.

I think I've found why it is not possible to convert biggest ship models.
I've tried to convert British 4deck120 to .ms3d using UU3D.
Result was an error message telling me that the .ms3d file format cannot handle more than 65534 vertices and that model is composed of... 67511 of them.
On the other hand, converting it to .fbx is not a problem.
Conclusion : we absolutely need a new converter that will use a better file format (.fbx, .dae or even .max if it is possible).

But it's not the sole problem to create new ship, we also a tool to edit model_naval tables, or even better, a converter that will create models_naval tables from ship models.
Problem here, if we can use S2TW .max model provided by CA to learn how CA place men (EFlines), we have no informations about how to place guns (CA "forget" to provided a model that has guns...).
Moreover, it means to understand how models_naval tables are build because they are quite complex.


The problem with naval models is that we have few informations about them, so, we have to discover by ourselves, test after test, from failure to success, how they "work", how they are "build".
It's also the reason why I want to congratulate you for your efforts and tenacity here
Most of the time, peoples are discourages and leave their project because of problems they have to face.
I'm please that you have continued to work on rigid_naval_model despite problems with converter as well as with model.


I agree about mesh names, the real ones are written in comments.
I'm quite sure that CA use a naming convention.

You will have to create a destruction animation, but KE converter cannot open .rigid_model_animation.
You will have to use UU3D to do this.

[izzi]

Thanks for the support. I did a 3th test,deleting an existing compound and a damage_panel. It looks that the conversion works. So maybe, when i made the back side of the sloop model, i thinck there was the problem. Because when i compare it with the other back sides of the vanilla ships, they are all connected good. I have to do further testing. I also looked at the rigging files. There you can see which kind of masts,sails and yards the ships use. There you can change the textures of the masts,sails and yards. And make new ones. I offcourse need to do some testing. I'm making a new ship with new damage panels, after i finish, i will convert it and see how it works in game (offcourse i need the animation of the ship,but i don't have UUW3D to do it). For the converters,i have a friend that is a programmer for more then 10 years, i whill try to ask him if he wants to help for this. He knows a lot of languages and has a lot of expierence in the field. Now, my last question, what is sloop_ao? Do you have to make it also?

[wangrin]

To create animation you can use MilkShape as well as 3ds max or any good 3d software.
But you will need UU3D as converter.

What you can do is to create destruction animation and then send it to me so I would be able to convert it.
I will convert an existing destruction animation, what file format do you prefer (.fbx, .ms3d, etc.).


It's a good news. Even if your friend cannot help, maybe will he knows peoples that can do it.

[izzi]

Well,normaly. UU3D can export C4D scene files. As i saw on the site. So if its possible to export it as C4D,if not, as an fbx extension. I'm planning to make new brigs (schooners),sloops, and then i go with the bigger ships.

[izzi]

Wangrin, can you do me a favor? Can you send me the variant file,where all the rigid_models are(the mast,yard,....)? And convert them to a C4D scenefile or fbx. If it's posible offcourse. Because i don't have UUW3D and milkshape can't convert the files in the variant doc.

[izzi]

here is a little preview of the USS Niagara

[izzi]

The USS Lynx

[izzi]

The USS Oneida

[wangrin]

Look really good

If you're interesting in, I've several documents with blueprints about 18th century ships :

• Las Fragatas de vela de la Armada Espanola 1650-1853, by Enrique Gª-Torralba Pérez
• Les vaisseaux du Roi Soleil, by Jean-Claude Lemineur, Omega Edition (1996)
• Elemens de l'architecture navale, by Duhamel Monceau, 1758
• Chébecs et bâtiments de la Méditérranéens : le Requin - 1750, by Jean Boudriot, édition ANCRE (1987)
• The History of the French Frigate 1650-1850, by Jean Boudriot, édition ANCRE (1993)
• The 74 Gun Ship - 1780, by Jean Boudriot, édition ANCRE (1977)
• The 20-gun Ship Blandford 1720, by Peter Goodwin, Naval Institue Press (1988)
• The Bomb Vessel Granado - 1742, by Peter Goodwin, Conway Maritime Press (1989)
• 18th century shipbuilding - Remarks on the Navies of the English and the Dutch, by Blaise Olivier, 1737
• Architectura Navalis Mercatoria, Chapman, Fredrik, 1768

[izzi]

I am interested. Offcourse i'm going to start with the little ships, like the US navy. They had most in that time (18 century and early 19th century) only sloops and brigs (or schooners)(exept the USS Constitution). I had alredy a lot of ships in my mind to do. Like the dutch ships "de zeven provinciën","Batavia",....for the French "Soleil Royal","Louis XV",........Sweden "Vasa"(or Wasa),.....British "Sovereign of the Seas",..... and so one. But piece by piece. Because the big ships take me a lot of time. Because there have to be stil done a lot,like new animation. I like to make new ship guns(if its possible offcourse). Is it possible to change the animation of the ensign flag behind? Because it doesn't realy look nice when the wind is on it.

[wangrin]

Yep, creating a ship model need a large amount of time. They are the most complex models in TW.
I will send you a link to download documents, but I have to finish to upload them.

Flags are particle models, this means they don't use .anim file for animations.
Problems is that I don't know where informations about particle model animation are stored.
Moreover, we would certainly need a converter to exploit them.

[izzi]

hmmm. Ok. There is a texture file and it's mentioned in all the comments the"sloop_ao" file (for a sloop). Do you know what it is?