Saying grace, who should we thank?...

[Amorphos]

Saying grace, who should we thank?

Just a little quip that bugged me the other day….

I am often bemused by the way Christians tend to automatically thing everyone should say grace at say a dinner party or what have you. This prompted me to question why? If we are to thank anyone, why not thank the growers and sellers of the food we are eating! …and our ancestors who made it all possible by clearing the lands and developing new production methods etc. one has to ask ~ no matter what our beliefs; who else is there to thank? The earth and evolution for bearing its fruits, then the universe for bearing the earth. Even if god exists, he only comes into the equation at most as that which created the universe [and even that is highly unlikely], he had nothing to do with any events thereafter.

On another occasion I was having problems communicating with a chap at the chip shop, he retorted ‘I speak the language god gave me’, this made me wonder why he thought god gave him language [again even if god exists, language is taught and learned by us not by god].

So why do we think god does things for us over and above what we know he doesn’t? if we take out all the aspects that we know god didn’t do, then there isn’t much left to thank him for.

From now on I will say a secular grace and thank the ancestors and people who do all the hard work.

[Fiyenyaa]

I've never seen anyone saying grace in my whole life. I don't think it's usual here in the UK.

[Amorphos]

Perhaps, depends what circles you move in, it is probably more prevalent in america or at least the bible belt.

[roy34543]

Its pretty much simplest to thank the bounty of the earth.
straightforward and I doubt anyone would complain.

[Nimthill]

I don't think it is necessarily of Christian origin. Hunter society often thank their kill for the gift of their meat, and this sounds very similar to thanking for the bounty of the earth. Likely, Christians adapted it but instead of thanking the earth (or the animal) they thank God.

[Katsumoto]

Depends on what you believe, in my opinion God got the ball rolling which caused all the things you mentioned. I don't say grace though, God doesn't need me to thank him every time I eat.

[Amorphos]

Depends on what you believe, in my opinion God got the ball rolling which caused all the things you mentioned. I don't say grace though, God doesn't need me to thank him every time I eat.

I suppose it’s a thing of general respect, although I would thank those who do the work and the earth first.

see your point tho

[Monarchist]

I suppose it’s a thing of general respect, although I would thank those who do the work and the earth first.

see your point tho

Why should we only thank the subsidiaries of an operation, and not the one who funded the whole thing? God made possible the crops, the produce yielded from the crops, the washing of the produce, and the ability to eat the produce by providing us with soil, vegetables, water, and our mouths. We must thank God at the table (however often or infrequently as you do), because everything is merely a spiration from Him.

Would you thank the call-screener of a corporation for being really helpful, or would you thank the CEOs of that corporation who allowed rules which give the call-screeners the ability to be more casual and relaxed? I would certainly be thankful for the good CEOs before I was thankful for the good work of people who were just following rules. We have to be thankful for the ones who had the vision to make the rules, not the ones who merely follow those rules because they have to. It's the one who made vision possible at the Dawn that matters, not the people who retain the vision at Noon and Dusk. I'm not especially admiring or respectful of a husband who manages not to cheat on his wife, for it is his duty not to cheat on his wife; however, I am admiring of God for having given husbands that rule.

[MaximiIian]

Saying grace, who should we thank?

That wholly depends on one's belief system. A monotheist may thank their deity. I, however, would thank the god and goddess whom I worship, as they are fertility deities and are tied to the cycle of the seasons and agriculture. But I rarely say a prayer before a meal because I often am in a rapacious and fixed mindset when I am hungry. Many things often slip my mind.

Other polytheists would probably thank their gods of farming and husbandry first and foremost, in addition to a god of transportation (e.g., for Greek reconstructionists, Hermes perhaps). Distribution, and all that.

This prompted me to question why? If we are to thank anyone, why not thank the growers and sellers of the food we are eating...

True, but in many theists' mindsets, those wouldn't exist without a first cause, a prime mover. It's a simple reduction.
I don't see why one couldn't thank both a deity and the workers in the same breath, but hey. It's whatever.

Perhaps, depends what circles you move in, it is probably more prevalent in america or at least the bible belt.

Not necessarily. I live in Kentucky, and it is quite rare that I see someone saying grace before a meal. It just varies on personal preference, and the mindset one is in before they're about to eat.

[Amorphos]

I, however, would thank the god and goddess whom I worship, as they are fertility deities and are tied to the cycle of the seasons and agriculture.

Yet they don’t do anything effectual ~ that’s my point, so why thank any deities?

True, but in many theists' mindsets, those wouldn't exist without a first cause, a prime mover. It's a simple reduction.
I don't see why one couldn't thank both a deity and the workers in the same breath, but hey. It's whatever.

The prime mover does nothing to produce our food, we do everything that is involved. Perhaps at most gods provided us with a universe, so thank them for death, disease and destruction, and people/the ancestors for all that is good.

[MaximiIian]

Yet they don’t do anything effectual

According to whom? Different theologies have different opinions on that, and on the degree to which they affect us.

[Amorphos]

According to whom? Different theologies have different opinions on that, and on the degree to which they affect us.

They can affect things on the mental level at most [one would think], but not on the physical level, otherwise we would have proof of their doings. I mean, they don’t go around putting manure on the earth etc, so what is it they actually do?

[basics]

" Even if god exists, he only comes into the equation at most as that which created the universe [and even that is highly unlikely], he had nothing to do with any events thereafter."

Quetzalcoatl,

It is written that God raises up nations and destroys others. Surely then the process is ongoing and has been since the beginning and will do until the end. Christians know this and so they are thankful that God has chosen them but moreso that He gave His Son that He made this possible, that is the reason for their thanks.

Perhaps it is so that you see God in nothing but we not only see Him but feel Him in everything. We live by His power, His Spirit, made pure in His Son, so we have much to be thankful for. The prayer that Jesus left to us puts all that into perspective. So the next time you witness grace being said you'll know why the people who say it are saying it.

[Helm]

You thank whoever prepared/bought the food you're eating?

[basics]

" You thank whoever prepared/bought the food you're eating?"

Helm,

Jesus once said that the vine that gives fruit is good but that the One that waters the vine is more important. Therefore it is God we thank knowing that He waters the vine.

[Amorphos]

It is written that God raises up nations and destroys others.

How? If he has an effect we would know about it. We could say he affects peoples minds but that’s not particularly ethical, a wiseman would let things go as they will rather than making attempts at denying free will.

Perhaps it is so that you see God in nothing but we not only see Him but feel Him in everything. We live by His power, His Spirit, made pure in His Son, so we have much to be thankful for. The prayer that Jesus left to us puts all that into perspective. So the next time you witness grace being said you'll know why the people who say it are saying it.

Even if you see him in everything, that doesn’t make him effectual.

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Why should we only thank the subsidiaries of an operation, and not the one who funded the whole thing?

Humans are the whole operation unless you go back to before the universe, and that is irrelevant to what we do now, in all but he made the big band ~ if he did. god is the subsidiary of the operation!!!! if any part of the process at all.

God made possible the crops, the produce yielded from the crops, the washing of the produce, and the ability to eat the produce by providing us with soil, vegetables, water, and our mouths.

Humans found a kind of grass they could grow on mass and so began crop growing. Humans wash the produce the universe provided the planet and evolution gave us our mouths.

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Not if they operate via physical phenomena.

If they operate via physical phenomena then it would be detectible, their efforts apparent!

Or if they act constantly in a way that is indistinguishable from the normal operation of the universe; or is the normal operation of the it.

I don’t understand, if you have something running parallel to the normal operations of things, in what way would it be effectual? If it is the normal operation, then you only need that operation, it works in and of itself without a third party.

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Jesus once said that the vine that gives fruit is good but that the One that waters the vine is more important.

And who waters the vine? We do, right!

[basics]

" And who waters the vine? We do, right!"

Quetzalcoatl,

You're playing with words, ya wee monkey. You know what is meant just as I do. God provides the rain not man. And as an example of nations being built or destroyed a wise person once said that a nation or empire seldom falls from without, rather from within and how true is that?

So what is it from within if it is not the degragation of the unity that once held sway to become weak as a result of inner turbulence. From the beginning of time and by what has been written it can be seen that God's hand, God's justice is at work among men and so with their nations. Israel itself being the prime example of what happens to men that listen not to God.

[MaximiIian]

If they operate via physical phenomena then it would be detectible, their efforts apparent!

How? If it is unable to be distinguished from natural phenomena, then it just appears to be natural phenomena.

I don’t understand, if you have something running parallel to the normal operations of things, in what way would it be effectual?

If it does anything. If it affects things in any way. That's what effectual means.

If it is the normal operation, then you only need that operation, it works in and of itself without a third party.

Thing is, under that model, the gods' action is the normal operation of the universe. They are inseparable.

[MaximiIian]

They can affect things on the mental level at most [one would think], but not on the physical level, otherwise we would have proof of their doings. I mean, they don’t go around putting manure on the earth etc, so what is it they actually do?

Not if they operate via physical phenomena. Or if they act constantly in a way that is indistinguishable from the normal operation of the universe; or is the normal operation of the it.
There are several possibilities here that can work around that.

[Adrian]

You should thank me Adrianus Magnus. Impressive name I have ahh ?


Well I thank chance blind chance that we exist and I thank me since I am part of the universe.