Divisional Squares?

Will there be divisional squares available in NTW? Napoleon used it when he was fighting against Mameluke cavalry in the Battle of Pyramids. General Macdonald formed a large huge square when he tried to attack Austrian centre in the Battle of Wagram. In the Battle of Waterloo, the Middle Guard attacked Wellington's position in square formation.

there will be squares, but I expect them to be the same as in Empire.

Attacked in square formation?

Not anti cavalry squares surely, but correct me if Im wrong...

Originally Posted by DoomBunny666

Attacked in square formation?

Not anti cavalry squares surely, but correct me if Im wrong...

Yep.

Though I don't know what you mean by anti-cavalry square, a square is a square, and it has other benefits besides cavalry defense. But in later years, ie, a decade after the Napoleonic Wars, one of the French generals called it the "perfect" offensive formation, if you can pull it off.

I can see why.

A hollow square?

I just realised I was being stupid, they would all turn forwards march tehn stop and go back into square, not actually marching all facing out right?

Originally Posted by DoomBunny666

A hollow square?

I just realised I was being stupid, they would all turn forwards march tehn stop and go back into square, not actually marching all facing out right?

Yep. There's a picture of that floating around on the Napoleonystika site somewhere.

Originally Posted by emperorpenguin

Divisional squares are already possible in ETW.

I don't think it's necessary to do anything special along these lines. Then again, I don't think it's necessary to take any precautions, even forming "normal" square is very optional in ETW. NTW, we'll see.

Judging from the few screenshots, squares in NTW are still the same as ETW. Little two-line-thick boxes of horsey doom.

IMO, the effectiveness of squares has been greatly exaggerated by history. Saying that 'only two times has a square ever been broken' is all well and good, but as I've said before, I imagine there are plenty of times when a squad of twenty British/Russian soldiers in Central Asia tried to form a square to defend against the onrushing horde of assorted Turkish cavalry only to be overrun. And, even in Europe, there are probably thousands of battles we never even heard of. It's safe to assume that in some of those, squares were formed and some of those squares were broken. Some commander probably thought a square was something like the ones in ETW.

In terms of multi-unit squares, I find it's best to form either a triangle (against pure cavalry armies such as you find in Imperial Splendour's Georgia) or a sort of pentagon with a concave face towards the enemy (against most other forces) with some form of artillery in the central angle, possibly with your general behind it. The enemy tends to charge straight at the artillery/general, then get shot to pieces by your infantry and grapeshot.

Originally Posted by Swerg

Saying that 'only two times has a square ever been broken' is all well and good, but as I've said before, I imagine there are plenty of times when a squad of twenty British/Russian soldiers in Central Asia tried to form a square to defend against the onrushing horde of assorted Turkish cavalry only to be overrun. And, even in Europe, there are probably thousands of battles we never even heard of. It's safe to assume that in some of those, squares were formed and some of those squares were broken. Some commander probably thought a square was something like the ones in ETW.

I see the "only two times" quote now and then, and of course it's total bs.

It's okay if squares are virtually invulnerable to cavalry, though. Just don't allow them to form while engaged in melee, or shoot as much, and make infantry vulnerable to cavalry when flanked. That's where ETW is bs.

Divisional squares are already possible in ETW, one of the preview videos before release featured them. You have to line your units up side by side and at right angles until you form a giant box. You can put artillery at the corners. I did it versus the Cherokee in my very first ETW campaign because I found them to be bloody hard to fight otherwise.

Only one square is recorded broken by only cavalry...

Originally Posted by DoomBunny666

Only one square is recorded broken by only cavalry...

You must be referring to the time Richard Sharpe and Pat Harper broke that square. Those boys could fight!

Originally Posted by DoomBunny666

Only one square is recorded broken by only cavalry...

Sounds like something Tom Clancy would say.

@Swerg

You haven't formed a square yet if you're the process of forming a square.

Btw, do you know how the square was broken? A dead horse smashed into the square after being shot, carried by momentum. No LIVE horsemen has ever broken a square.

What are you guys thinking of? There are dozens, probably hundreds, of instances of broken squares. For goodness' sake, there were two just at Quatre Bras, a little skirminsh.

I'm not saying breaking a square is common, nor that modeling it as unbreakable isn't a good first approximation. But "two recorded instances" is just silly.

Originally Posted by Randall Turner

What are you guys thinking of? There are dozens, probably hundreds, of instances of broken squares. For goodness' sake, there were two just at Quatre Bras, a little skirminsh.

I'm not saying breaking a square is common, nor that modeling it as unbreakable isn't a good first approximation. But "two recorded instances" is just silly.

I like how we have recorded proof as you guys have hypothetical scenarios and assumption.

Originally Posted by LiN

I like how we have recorded proof as you guys have hypothetical scenarios and assumption.

If there's a better researcher than Hofschroer, I'm unaware of it.

Peter Hofschroer writes, "... squares of British infantry held off the French cavalry at first , but the square of the 42nd was broken and the 44th was thrown into disorder , the colour of the 44th being fought over." Sergeant Anton of the 42nd Highland writes , " . . . . they [ French lancers ] were approaching our right flank ... We instantly formed a rallying square; no time for particularity: every man's musket was loaded, and our enemies approached at full charge ... our brave Colonel [Sir Robert Macara] fell at this time, pierced through the chin until the point reached his brain. Captain Menzies fell covered with wounds. ... The grenadiers [ of 42nd ] , whom he commanded, pressed round to save or avenge him, but fell beneath the enemies lances." Ney sent for Guiton's Cuirassier Brigade in one last attempt to win the battle. The 69th Foot (the South Lincolnshire) was formed in square and delivered a
volley at 30 paces. The 8th Cuirassiers however charged and broke the square. Private Henry with the help of Maréchal-des-logis Massiet jumped to the ground and picked up the king's color of the II battalion from the arms of ensign Clarke who had been hacked down by 23 saber cuts. For this, Massiet received the Legion of Honour.

Would you feel better if they were French squares? That happens too.


In 1813 in Dresden, Russian Grodno and Loubny Hussars broke one square ( formed of 2 battalions ? ) of 5th Young Guard Voltigeurs . The hussars killed ,wounded and took prisoner 310 guardsmen. The valiant Grodno Hussars then broke another square of the Young Guard. (Plotho - "Der Krieg" Vol II).
In 1814 at Fere Champenoise, regiment of Wirtembergian cavalry charged a square formed by two battalions of Young Guard Tirailleurs . The first and second charge were thrown back . On the third charge they broke into the square and captured 2 guns , but the square itself held fast. Finally the 4th charge (made by Archduke Ferdinand’s Hussars) succeeded. Shortly before this last charge a strong rain fell making the gunpowder and muskets useless. Thus the Wirtembergian cavalry broke 1 square made of 2 battalions of the Young Guard.

And on, and on, and on...

I hear that "two recorded instances", who said that? I want to look them up and read their rationale.

Originally Posted by Randall Turner

If there's a better researcher than Hofschroer, I'm unaware of it.

Peter Hofschroer writes, "... squares of British infantry held off the French cavalry at first , but the square of the 42nd was broken and the 44th was thrown into disorder , the colour of the 44th being fought over." Sergeant Anton of the 42nd Highland writes , " . . . . they [ French lancers ] were approaching our right flank ... We instantly formed a rallying square;

The 69th Foot (the South Lincolnshire) was formed in square and delivered a
volley at 30 paces. .

While I agree with you Randall that "Two Squares" is a ridiculous understatement I have a few problems with Hofschroer's account.

The 44th at Quatre Bras did not form square, the second rank simply faced to the rear, forming a double-facing line. This was the same feat the 28th did at Alexandria and the French 72nd at Marengo.
The 69th was ordered into line by the Prince of Orange and was cut down.
The 42nd formed square successfully but late, trapping a number of cavalry inside who were quickly killed.

A rallying square is different to a regular square, the former is a "clump"

There was a Prussian square destroyed at Katzbach, though this was because heavy rain prevented musketry and the 6th French lancers stabbed their way into the square. Likewise at Dresden an Austrian square again unable to fire because of rain, was destroyed by lancers. In both cases however Chasseurs a Cheval and Cuirassiers could not break the square first, only the extra reach of the lance could defeat the bayonet.

Of cavalry alone breaking a square, many were broken either by the defenders cowardice or by artillery...

And thats only recorded...

Where's the evidence for all these broken squares then Randall ? The one formed square broken at Garcia Hernandez is recorded,the squares at Quatre Bras were not fully formed. I remember an argument on a French forum where they claimed British squares were broken at Fuentes de Onoro and it turned out they were referring to small groups of skirmishers forming so called 'clumps'.

I thought Fere Champenoise was a rare instance of infantry advancing against cavalryand forming square on the move. I think a Spanish square was also broken at Medina del Rio Seco but these are hardly hundreds of instances. The square at Quatre Bras was ordered into line by Silly Billy aka Prince of Orange and was not broken when formed,and we all know Hofschroer will distort the evidence to suit his agenda.

http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Paris_1814.htm

Fere Champenoise is hardly a fair example