America's achievements as a society

[Count of Montesano]

There have been several posts lately decrying America as the biggest waste of a society that has ever existed, with our highest achievement being McDonald's. I just thought it's time to set the record straight - in two short centuries Americans have added quite a bit to world culture and REVOLUTIONIZED THE WAY WE LIVE.

I am not writing this post to make you bask in my American glory. Nor am I trying to ignore the cess pool that Britney Spears and Tom Cruise and Eminem have created. I just wanted to set the record straight - America has a lot to be proud of, and quite frankly a lot that the current generation needs to live up to.

I am also counting achievements of immigrants who moved to America and did their best work as American citizens. For example, I couldn't count John Lennon because he did his best work in the UK. However, I am counting Albert Einstein because some of his most important research was completed in the US.

Let me start with major scientific accomplishments: the light bulb and the phonograph (Thomas Edison); the telephone (Scottish emigre Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Watson); first mass-produced automobile (Henry Ford); one of the first working submarines (The CSS Huntley); the polio vaccine (Jonas Salk); first motorized airplane (Wright Brothers); peanut butter (George Washington Carver); the work of multiple scientists, Einstein included, on harnessing nuclear energy; the first space mission to the moon - in a thousand years humanity will view the Kennedy space program in the same light as Columbus and Magellan. No, they will see it as an even greater achievement.

America is still contributing to science and technology. Our bio-tech industry is one of the most advanced in the world. American companies such as Microsoft have launched the current digital and internet revolution.

I'm going to go ahead and break up my post. When I get off work - I will go into America's considerable artistic, literary and musical achievements.

[Rowan11088]

While the Eminem comment is a little off (he's one of the most intelligent people in the music industry, like him or not), otherwise I wholeheartedly agree. You can't forget, either, that the Declaration of Independence was immensely influential in Europe, helping spark the French Revolution and the later revolutions of 1848. We got the ball rolling on egalitarianism and anti-monarchy. We had free press and free speech before pretty much any other place in the world, and as a result our literature is considered the largest pool of great works produced in the last 200 years.

Go us! Or rather, go US!

[MadKow]

America is great. Americans are even greater. Several Americans have their places guaranteed in the history of mankind. But if a country with such a population base and resources didn't produce something worthy, that would be a surprise.
One may wonder however where the next Henry Ford will come from, considering how industries are being relocated abroad in search for lower wages.... Microsoft, i wouldn't praise so much.. a moment or two of business minded genius granted them the place they have. More than technical prowess or creativity, that tends to come from smaller companies that are bought or thrown out of businesses...
Oh.. and the bio-tech industry... thats just evil.. trying to control the world food resources.

Ok this is a "So what" kind of reply. People do tend to have extreme opinions. The US may not be the greatest thing on earth. But it certainly is not the worse. Overall. Considering. Not looking at the last 50 year... huh .. sorry couoldnt help it.

[Elu Barcino]

Although I agree that America has achieved more than most give it credit for, this thread strikes me as slightly insecure. If you are so confident of America's greatness, surely there is no need to keep reminding everyone of it? None of the European nations (or just about any of the other western countries for that matter) feel the need to keep reminding themselves of their achievements.

Just thought I'd spark a bit of debate in this thread.

[Rowan11088]

None of the European nations (or just about any of the other western countries for that matter) feel the need to keep reminding themselves of their achievements.

Isn't France doing it just about all the time? Considering where their population growth is going, you can't blame them, but we're not the only ones touting ourselves. Plus we also come under fire more than any of those countries, so I think it's justified.

[Muizer]

Plus we also come under fire more than any of those countries

That is perhaps not surprising. Americans tend to be in the majority on English language game forums and often seem to treat them as if they are "home territory" in a political, cultural and ethical sense. I can't speak for other non Americans, but I used to find this quite annoying. After all, American values aren't exactly understood, let alone shared, throughout the world. Of course that doesn't mean that the appropriate response is to make disparaging comments about the US.

Muizer

[nahirean]

Isn't France doing it just about all the time? Considering where their population growth is going, you can't blame them, but we're not the only ones touting ourselves. Plus we also come under fire more than any of those countries, so I think it's justified.

Rowan,

If you stop and consider the horrible results of expoential growth against a finite resource that doesn't sound like much of an insult towards France.

[danzig]

Although I agree that America has achieved more than most give it credit for, this thread strikes me as slightly insecure. If you are so confident of America's greatness, surely there is no need to keep reminding everyone of it? None of the European nations (or just about any of the other western countries for that matter) feel the need to keep reminding themselves of their achievements.

Just thought I'd spark a bit of debate in this thread.

Nothing insecure about it as it seems to be a direct reply to another thread started by someone who ended with the only cultural achievement the US has is Mcdonalds. Defending/setting things straight is hardly insecure.

After all, American values aren't exactly understood, let alone shared, throughout the world. Of course that doesn't mean that the appropriate response is to make disparaging comments about the US.

Unfortunately that is exactly the response by alot of non americans who clearly DO NOT understand America but try to come off smug and know it all attitude before breaking into their anti american rant.

If we are going to debate merits however, lets not bring boys band pop into this... its on the same class as macdonals... market penetration does not equal quality or artistic merit.

Hey for every Boy Band(tm) there is a Boy George for every Britney Spears there is a George Michaels (and to ensure the canadians dont get off the hook) for every Christina Aguiliera there is a Celine Dione.

Coming from someone who's apparently never heard of Jazz, the Blues, Gospel, Rock & Roll (yes Americans, specifically Black Americans, invented it), R&B, Hip-Hop

Hey you forgot Death and Thrash Metal!

[bon]

I'm going to go ahead and break up my post. When I get off work - I will go into America's considerable artistic, literary and musical achievements.

=============================


ok i had to luagh when i read "musical achievments", do you mean rap? "rythmical american poetry"? the most pathetic excuse for musci ever invented, whats talented about talking with a beat in the background that somebody could have made in 5 seconds on thier computer?

it really should be "creative rythmical american poetry

[RazorOutlaw]

Why would you immediately jump to the conclusion that American has only produced rap in terms of musical achievements?

[Farnan]

Ever hear of George Gershwin? How about Broadway? Don't forget Jazz was also created in America.

A link about Gershwin http://www.classical.net/music/comp....biography.html

[Rowan11088]

Yeah I would agree, great painting and traditional art still belongs to Europe for the most part. But when it comes to modern culture, movies, music, etc. America is king. If I'm not mistaken, jazz and blues are really big in Europe right now, and our pop culture music (lame as it may be sometimes) is huge just about everywhere else except the Middle East. Of course we get a lot of credit for the African American music heritage that we essentially "stole", but I suppose that's a moot point now. The great classic movies are almost ALL American, and what little good there is on Television, we have more than our share.

[MadKow]

Actually Jazz was big in Europe even when it was still mostly marginal in the US. Black performers like Miles Davis enjoyed stardom and were recognized for their genius in Europe before in the US.

If we are going to debate merits however, lets not bring boys band pop into this... its on the same class as macdonals... market penetration does not equal quality or artistic merit.

The great classical movies... One only has to go through Eisenstein, Fritz Lang, Fellini and Kurosawa... to find influential moviemaking everywhere else... US cinema was able at a point to turn moviemaking into an industry, but i dont think it holds the exclusive on inovation by any margin. As entertainment, surely. As art, i think the credits are more spread.

[lila-laune-bär]

This reminds me of a discussion some time ago at school. It was about "americanization, globalization..." (silly topic, ignorant anti-american teacher... I know). The girls in our class said, that the US had no culture. No more discussion needed. Their arguments: McDonald's cannot be culture, that's primitive. The US citizens are also dumb because they vote for Bush. Furthermore the US are a very young nation and so they've got no cultural background like us Europeans.
Man, I got angry when I heard that. They don't know anything about America, but they think they can judge about the cultural development of different nations.. I don't know the US very well too, but I don't judge about something I don't know exactly.

Then I asked them, what defines our austrian/european culture. Everything that was named like classis music, imperial châteaus, and so on is dated around the 18th, 19th 20th century. The US have been founded in 1776, so that's about the same timeframe.
Then they said that they're not as culturally developed because of the roman empire and other great empires. The ancestors of the americans never experienced that. Hell, most americans were people from Europe! They had the same cultural background. They didn't come out of nothing in 1776 and declaired independence!
Another argument: We've got so good literature and read it, whilst the americans hardly read at all. Hmmm, they don't know any american writers... so there is no literature in the US? Correct...

Needless to say that they ran out of arguments. :laughing:

[MadKow]

The fact is, and this is true for most countries, with some remarcable exceptions, the general populace has little connection to their own countries greatest achievements, especially when it comes to culture. The best parts of American culture will sooner be appreciated by "cultural elites" outside US borders than by the general internal public.

The subject of cultural heritage from ancient Rome or Greece is not that linear. In Europe one live inbebbed in that. I suspect (and this is purely speculation) that the colonial and pioneer experience of the American people created some dettachment from that "Old World" experience. Institutions and scholarship were not the foundations of the culture, but rather the singular conditions met by the people.

[Hakkapeliitta]

For the music part, nearly all music that is listened in the western world today is derived from blues, from pop to death metal. And blues of course is from the USA.

[Count of Montesano]

Sorry I didn't post sooner - had a "honey-do list" waiting for me when I got home. My wife has the "night general" trait, which allows her to swoop down on me unforeseen and cajole me into doing chores when I'd rather be finishing up this post.

To those of you who accuse me of being completely insecure, I am not. I am worried about where America is going culturally mind you, but this post is not just about Yankee chest-pumping. I've been defending America's culture for years now, and this week alone there have been dozens of vicious attacks that go something like this:

America sucks - you have no culture, oh sorry I forgot there is McDonalds. Oh, and 50-cent is America's greatest musician ever ROFL. Mozart PWNS you all.

One thing that continually drove me nuts when I studied and lived in Japan was how the Japanese constantly talked about America's lack of culture since we don't have tea ceremonies or ikebana or highly stylized calligraphy. I constantly had to point out that America has:

great painters - O'Keefe, Whistler, Audubon, Warhol, Lichtenstein,Trumbull, Warhol. Also some of the greatest architects of the 20th century such as Frank Lloyd Wright and now American citizen Frank Gehry.

Great writers and poets - Melville, Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Faulkner, Maya Angelou, Robert Frost, Emily Dickinson, Poe

Great musicians - Berlin, Gershwin, BB King, Bo Didley, Billie Holliday, Miles Davis, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Jimi Hendrix - America has been on the cutting edge of the last century of music. America has also nurtured and inspired countless musicians from other countries - from John Lennon to Eric Clapton to Chinese celloist Yo Yo Ma.

Of course it depends on how you look at music and culture - do you consider composers necessarily greater than performing musicians? I think you can easily argue Mozart and Bach were greater composers than say Miles Davis. But Miles was most likely a greater musician than the great German/Austrian composers. Things get even more complicated when you consider the Jazz and Blues greats were musical genuises because of their ability to improv instead of being bound to strict classical guidelines.

That may be the heart of the matter in this discussion. The Japanese consider modern music, film, anime, etc as entertainment. "Culture" involves things that date from the Edo or even ancient Heian dynasty - kabuki and noh, tea ceremonies, the playing of traditional instruments, etc. My European friends have a similar paradigm - Shakespeare is culture, the works of Orson Welles is not. Mozart is culture, American blues is not.

Yet my argument is looking back just 50 years, you can find plenty of examples of American artists who will undoubtedly stand the test of time.

[Major.Stupidity]

I'm just wondering how many people still believe in American Exceptionalism? Or did that die world wide after Iraq or was it Vietnam?

[Black_Commander]

Great writers and poets - Melville, Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Faulkner, Maya Angelou, Robert Frost, Emily Dickinson, Poe

I would like to add to that Fredrick Douglass, Ray Bradburry, Hawthorne Nathaniel, Mark Twain, Pyle, and many many others.

[Kscott]

How can MacDonalds be considered anit-culture. It is simply an example of a good modern invention. Sure, it can be very unhealthy, but sometimes getting a quick bite to eat is needed.. If anything it shows economic ingenuity...

And Emineim should definatly not be classified as "po" culture garbage.. Anybody who expresses themselves in an artisitc way is an artist. True Rap may not exactly be music, but it certainly is a form of poetry that can be very expressing of the artist and by my stanards Art....