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Thread: Laptop buying Guide

  1. #1
    karamazovmm's Avatar スマトラ警備隊
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    Default Laptop buying Guide

    Have seen too many threads in the technical area dedicated to ask if your pc will run ETW, have decided to create this thread to answer those questions


    -The CPU

    This is the heart of your PC, he commands! And as such we have to choose a good one. To expand this a little further here is some knowledge regarding cpus and their functioning, currently intel is still the best thing around, but I hope that AMD is picking up the flow.

    I will explain here some of the new techs around and some of the old ones too.

    CPU 1 on 1

    The cpu as I said is the heart of the pc, but here is what it is.

    Its a piece of silicon

    Its manufactured in different processes, the usual now is the combination of several processes, High K (high magnesium) gates for the transistors, or the upcoming tri gate transistors (still using High K), HKMPG, and some others

    Die shrink is basically a change in the manufacturing process. So when you go to 65nm to 45nm, the smallest part of your cpu is going to have 45nm.

    Speed Step = this is intel response for the demand of the people for more battery life on their laptops, not to mention the green guys (me included) that want their pcs to sip little power as needed. What it does is to lower the clocks or the multiplier

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    AMD

    AMD is back in the game, specially due to the Fusion APU, wait what? Fusion? APU?

    APU = accelerated processing unit!

    Fusion = marketing name!

    So here is what AMD did, when it bought ATI a few years ago it designed what should and is currently the future of cpus, to integrate the CPU with the GPU. Currently although the GPU on the AMD system are good, the CPU aint.

    Why?

    Because its based on the K10.5 architecture (phenom II), basically what they did with this new line of chips is to slam the GPU in the CPU, much similar to what intel did with the first gen core processors, there is no integration in the die (the chip itself). So here is the deal, the CPU is still weak, although better than what I had written this guide for the first time, however the performance is adequate for almost everyone, and it performs on par with the core 2 duo line up. For strategy games it still not enough, but for everyone else its a good buy, and they are dirt cheap.

    Intel

    In pc we always try for a one size fits all, but most of you know that doesn't come anywhere near true, since we have such a huge numbers of pcs and as such we have to have some knowledge for us to grab the one we want it.

    The letter/type of chip (order of the list is higher to lower) :
    - i7= holy mother! best processor you can get in laptops, *Strengths: Great performance Weakness: in terms of power consumption its similar to the first gen core series dual cores.
    - i5= the most powerful two core processor around,*Strengths: Excellent processing power, great power saver Weakness: it lacks the punch that the i7 quads have right now
    - i3= this is for the wallet conscious, still pack a good power, just like the old core duo
    - Q= means that it's a quad core *Strengths: Great processing power Weakness: Gulp a lot of power
    - T= means a normal core duo *Strengths: Good Performance Weakness: Could be more power conscious
    - P= means a smaller voltage core duo *Strengths: Good performance, sips little power Weakness: not as powerful as the the T line
    - LV= Low Voltage processors, they have the TDP of 17w (against the usual quads [45w] dual cores [35w], thus they emit less heat, and consume less power. This is for extreme thin and light laptops
    - SL/SP/ULV= means ultra low voltage processors *Strengths: People on the go that need more processing power that your netbook can give Weakness: Has a low processing power compared to the others, although it gives double the performance of an Atom


    The i5 and i3 have now some interesting feature, they can transmit hd video wirelessly, what? Yes they use a hdmi connection with a special router to transmit those neat image from your screen to some bigger screen that you like without those cables, very useful if you want to use them as HTPC (home theater pc)




    -Graphics card

    Always buy a pc with DEDICATED graphics, it means a chip dedicated only to do the graphics work, there are two providers of this thing, ATI and NVIDIA. Intel graphics (GMA 4500hd, GMA X3100, GMA 965, or lower are INTEGRATED, FOR PLAYING ANYTHING ELSE THAN YOUTUBE THEY'RE CRAP)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Power of the graphics:

    As of any products we have series, versions, etc.. here are some of they (order newer to older):

    Nvidia G 200 = newest of the bunch
    ATI HD 4000 = newest of the bunch
    Nvidia G 100 = rebranding of the 9000 series
    Nvidia 9000 = the most common series of Nvidia
    Nvidia 8000 = old series don't buy at all costs
    ATI HD 3000 = old series don't buy at all costs

    Graphics card have a lot of digits/letters! We can get confused, and as such I have thought a way that might minimize the distress caused by that huge amount of choices.

    1- Let's pay attention to the power of the card!
    2- Let's see what resolution that your monitor have (most notebooks come with a 1280x1024, 1366x768, 1680x1050,1920x1080).

    take a look at this picture (click to expand)


    * Those are the most common graphics are out there, if you don't find it here, don't worry use the common sense, the higher the number the better, and you can also check at :

    http://www.notebookcheck.net/Compari...rds.130.0.html

    * in the Nvidia world there's lots of flavors, and they are showed to us in letters, and now they're here with a ranking order, the usual higher to lower:
    GTX > GTS > GT > GS

    Nvidia has a custom of rebranding things, and that's what she done with the GT 200. What? Yes my boy, every model except the GT 240 are some form of rebranding, are from the old architecture, sometimes higher clocked, with a slight increase in shadders, but essentially the same product. Now the GT 240 uses the "new" GT 200 architecture from pcs, err what do you mean.

    I'm saying that the GTX 280 that your thinking is the same GTX 280 from desktop, uses the G92b architecture, that's the same as the 8800 GT from the desktop world. And getting a GTX 280 sli, gives you the same power as the 8800 GTX from the desktop world. Sad, hum?

    Now the GT 300 line is brand new based in the GT 200 desktop line. Although they offer almost the same performance as the old cards, i.e. the GT 230= GT 330, the variation is minimum. Although we do have to wait for the top of the line models, but it seems that what will save Nvidia in the laptop market is optimus (more on this as soon as it becomes more material).

    So basically here if you want to play empire I would recommend something higher than the HD 4330 from ATI, you can play but with the lowest settings, something along the lines of the HD 4650 should do you fine playing on medium or high even, above that you get great performance

    PS: I will update ATI side of things, as soon as the drivers mature, since the HD 5850 now have the same performance as the HD 4850, sometimes less.


    -Memmory

    It's the courier that your pc uses to fetch some data at high speeds.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The higher the merrier, as of now most of the notebooks are comming with 2gb, 3gb, 4gb, go for the higher way 4gb, but remember to look at OS (operational system) that you're using!

    32-bit = use only 3gb even if you have more
    64-bit = use up to 128gb

    So, when buying your pc it will probably come with windows, choose, please, the 64-bit version of it, example: windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit. Future proof your system!

    You can upgrade your memory, it's easy, but remember 4g for now is the best for the price.


    -Hard Drive

    He remembers all those movies and photos that you put in your pc!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The most common ones are the 320gb or the 250gb go for the higher number there are available up to 640gb.
    The speed of the hd is defined by the size of it and the rpm, the higher the better, altough it will consume more power, common speeds are 5400rpm and 7200rpm

    SSDs:

    They're the most novelty of the market, they work like the thumb drive that you and I commonly use, they don't have moveable parts and they're FAST AND EXPENSIVE! if you have the money go get one if not do as I do, wait....


    Other important Stuff!

    Here are some other important stuff that are very worth mentioning!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    -Screen

    The higher the resolution the better, 1366X768 is becoming common, for me it's great some people would go all the way HD in here, but for some people like me that don't have a 20/20 vision in my case more of a 0/0 the "lower the better". Remember 1366X768 is 16:9 format, you have seen this format in your TV, but the most usual format for now for pcs is 16:10, which is falling down the guts...

    There are some types there, the LCD, the LED, the RGB-LED!??! Simply put the RGB-LED are the best, now they are only available at dell, seconded by the LED.

    Matte screen or glossy? personal taste, I do prefer matte.

    -The Chassis

    The notebook is something that you carry around, or should, and so always verify if it is rugged enough for you, if it isn't most chances are that you end up breaking the plastic of some part of it.

    -The weight

    Go for the one that seens light, seriously go for that one, notebooks are portable things, and altough you think yourself to have some strength, you will add some 2,5kg to 5kg to your backpack which already, if your like me its filled with things, so we are travelling light let's hunt some orcs!


    -Notebooks that I don't recommend

    HP Pavillion line - they're expensive (in my country Brazil), they have serious heat issues, and don't pack power.
    Dell Inspiron line - they're cheap and that's it, your not going to game anything in here

    Here are some good machines at reasonable prices:

    16" to 18"
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834114706
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834101203
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834220622
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834114785
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834117947

    15"to 14"
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834220605
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834146613
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834220634
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834117908

    If I were you I would look at some MSI notebook specially the gt640 which is portable and has some good guts

    Not advertising but from this list I would personally go for the lenovo, good graphics chip, and processor, if the company is not know to you, they bought the pc part of IBM, there's quality and price in there

    =Online Stores per Country=

    I want to add a new section to both guides so people can make more conscious choices and get better prices, along as well better machines.
    This is a part that is going to be constantly update since I'm asking the contribution of all of you people out there!
    This section don't have any intention to advertise, just to make you make better choices, to handle better your precious hard worked money! Here we have some, they're going to be divided by country so take a look around!

    -US-

    Retailers

    www.newegg.com
    www.tigerdirect.com
    www.zipzoomfly.com
    www.microcenter.com

    Manufacturers

    http://www.falcon-nw.com/
    http://www.ibuypower.com/lobby.aspx
    www.cyberpowerpc.com

    -UK-

    http://www.ebuyer.com/

    http://www.overclockers.co.uk/produc...hp?groupid=701

    http://www.scan.co.uk/
    Last edited by karamazovmm; August 07, 2011 at 05:50 AM.

    The very ugly forgive, but beauty is essential - Vinicius de Moraes

  2. #2

    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    Very nice guide. I bought a laptop not too long ago and it runs ETW excellently.
    Nice job there. +rep for your effort
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  3. #3
    Pope Gregorius I's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    thanks for the guide, I have a Gateway P series(cant rememebr exactly) with a 9800m gts....it is supposed to work well and does with my cooling fan but every once in a while(or twice in a while...) it freezes from a video hardwar error, new drivers, windows update...nothing fixes it permanently...so now im looking for a hnew one, although id hate to buy a new one only a year after having bought the gateway...im also considering a desktop instead since they are far more reliable as gaming power houses(and i onlt play rts, no fps, so that just confuses me more...)

    oh btw, alot of your links are listed as "currently unavailable product" by newegg. just a heads up.
    "Have mercy on me, O God, according to Thy great compassion. Your delight is not in horses, nor Your pleasure in warriors strength..."

  4. #4
    karamazovmm's Avatar スマトラ警備隊
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    yes I need to update those, but I'm currently waiting for the new asus to arrive, not to mention acers. It also appears that the sony F line is going to be updated also, and there is one more line that should be a fine deal in the MSI. So those are the reasons I didn't update.

    I would recommend for you the envy 15. Its got great specs, and bing cashback, or promotion coupons, those usually run in the 150-450 ballpark.

    In its basic config its plenty powerful at 1300.

    cpu: i5 430m
    gpu: HD 5830 (its got the power of a desktop 5750)
    HD: 320g ( you can get up to 2 160g 1.8'' SSDs with a steal price of 550, those models cost at street price 500 a piece)
    RAM: 4g
    metal build, aluminium + magnesium
    2.1kg

    cons is that it aint got a dvd drive, it has to be external

    as you can see by this pic it has plenty of cooling, its 2 fans only for the cpu, and one dedicated for the gpu

    The crazy thing is that people who own this are overclocking it, with great results.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    btw the problem you told me, it could be due to high latency components ( or not getting the right drivers, laptops drivers are released from the manufacturer of the pc, not the card, Nvidia started the verde program, and ATI is releasing drivers for laptops since the 10.3, so its pretty much ''new'', and guess what you could have installed the wrong drivers), and gateway is to be cheap, so...
    Last edited by karamazovmm; April 26, 2010 at 03:13 PM.

    The very ugly forgive, but beauty is essential - Vinicius de Moraes

  5. #5

    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    I was wondering if Rome Total War would run Ok on integrated graphics. I know it would be pretty rubbish, but with a good combination (i3 and Intel HD) would there be playable framerates? I'll probably not do much gaming, I just wanted to know if it actually works...
    Thanks.

  6. #6
    karamazovmm's Avatar スマトラ警備隊
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    yes rome can run pretty well on integrated gpu... I played in a lenovo with a 945gm express. With the i3 gpu it will be better.

    But beware, battles with too much troops are a lag fest

    The very ugly forgive, but beauty is essential - Vinicius de Moraes

  7. #7

    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MM View Post
    yes rome can run pretty well on integrated gpu... I played in a lenovo with a 945gm express. With the i3 gpu it will be better.

    But beware, battles with too much troops are a lag fest
    Ah, thank you.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    WOW nice guide i would rep you if i would know how but anyways it all comes down to price so its obvious id buy the best out there if i had the money but not having enough money would resort in buying either the average or the one you really need and cutting off all those shiny unnecessary fancy notches.

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    Boriak's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    A rather noob question but since I don't own a laptop only the usual box PC, I never figured out such stuff.

    I can play any of the TW series without difficulties on my PC but when I try to play them on a borrowed laptop, things slow down and graphics turn lousy. And this is just in the strategic map screen. Tactical map is redundant beyond belief.

    What is the most important factor for this? The graphic card or the memory chip?

    I'm in the market for buying a laptop and I would really like to run Rome and mods and later Medieval2 with mods. How do I know what to buy so I don't waste money and then realize I can't play them?

  10. #10
    karamazovmm's Avatar スマトラ警備隊
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    The major factors on TW games are always these: CPU and the GPU.

    The RAM is not a major issue but 4g became standard and that is plentiful for that game.

    There are some laptops that I vouch here:

    Acer - Timeline Series (remember to see the G at the end of the name, that is the mark for graphics, meaning that it comes with the rather good 5650)
    3820tg
    4820tg

    Sony - EB, F, and Z series

    HP - Envy
    14
    15
    17 (I dont particularly like this one, but some like the not portability of a 17'', meaning its not portable at all)

    Dell - XPS
    14
    15

    Asus - N series, U series, G series

    U41 to be more precise

    But here lies the problem the new CPUs from intel are about to enter market they are due to launch 5th january, and there are several laptops that are on backordered status around the web, and it promises significant battery improvement and power. So yeah just wait a bit.

    The very ugly forgive, but beauty is essential - Vinicius de Moraes

  11. #11
    Boriak's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    I'm leaning towards buying a laptop with the following graphic card:

    ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5145

    Is this one fine?

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    divinelight's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    I got 'HP G62-149WM' it gives me a great performance on Europa barbarorum,
    I hope it gives good performance for M2TW well in high settings

  13. #13
    karamazovmm's Avatar スマトラ警備隊
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    @Boriak

    it wont. I warn you that the new IGP (integrated gfx processor) from Sandy Bridge (new line of intel chips), is faster than it. That chip is a rebranded 4550, which was already terrible in the day, but now will be...

    @divinelight

    The built quality is ok in that lappy, but to be able to play m2tw with mods on high... its not something which I can do easily when the battles get messy with 5000 troops, and I have a much more powerful 4670m for gpu.

    The very ugly forgive, but beauty is essential - Vinicius de Moraes

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    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    Would you recommend a laptop for me? I have a $2,000 budget. I currently own an ASUS G54 (or 52?) I was happy with it's performance, and would be still if it didn't have massive apparantley unsolveble heat issues. I'm very seriously considering the 73 series from ASUS, but I'm hesistant. A coworker bought one, and it seems like the ports in the back will take care of the heat problem. I don't want anything by Dell or HP for sure. I'm open to Alienware, but I don't know if the bang for the buck matches up.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

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    karamazovmm's Avatar スマトラ警備隊
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    fill this for me would you?

    General Questions

    1) What is your budget?

    2) What size notebook would you prefer?
    a. Netbook; 10” screen or less
    b. Ultraportable; 11" - 12” screen
    c. Thin and Light; 13" - 14" screen
    d. Mainstream; 15" - 16" screen
    e. Desktop Replacement; 17"+ screen
    3) Where will you buying this notebook? You can select the flag of your country as an indicator.

    4) Are there any brands that you prefer or any you really don't like?
    a. Like:
    b. Dislike:

    5) Would you consider laptops that are refurbished/redistributed?

    6) What are the primary tasks will you be performing with this notebook?

    7) Will you be taking the notebook with you to different places, leaving it on your desk or both?

    8) Will you be playing games on your notebook? If so, please state which games or types of games?

    9) How many hours of battery life do you need?

    10) Would you prefer to see the notebooks you're considering before purchasing it or buying a notebook on-line without seeing it is OK?

    11) What OS do you prefer? Windows (XP or Vista or Windows 7), Mac OS, Linux, etc.

    Screen Specifics

    12) From the choices below, what screen resolution(s) would you prefer? Keep in mind screen size in conjunction with resolution will play a large role in overall viewing comfort level. Everyone is different. Some like really small text, while others like their text big and easy to read. Click here for Screen resolution information.

    13) Do you want a Glossy/reflective screen or a Matte/non-glossy screen?

    Build Quality and Design

    14) Are the notebook's looks and stylishness important to you?

    15) When are you buying this laptop?

    16) How long do you want this laptop to last?

    Notebook Components

    17) How much hard drive space do you need; 80GB to 640GB? Do you want a SSD drive?

    18) Do you need an optical drive? If yes, a CDRW/DVD-ROM, DVD Burner or Blu-Ray drive?

    The very ugly forgive, but beauty is essential - Vinicius de Moraes

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    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    General Questions

    1) What is your budget?

    $2000 US.

    2) What size notebook would you prefer?
    e. Desktop Replacement; 17"+ screen
    3) Where will you buying this notebook? You can select the flag of your country as an indicator.
    US.
    4) Are there any brands that you prefer or any you really don't like?
    a. Like: ASUS, Alienware, Falcon NW
    b. Dislike: Dell HP

    5) Would you consider laptops that are refurbished/redistributed?
    Yes.
    6) What are the primary tasks will you be performing with this notebook?
    Gaming/Surfing
    7) Will you be taking the notebook with you to different places, leaving it on your desk or both?
    Both.
    8) Will you be playing games on your notebook? If so, please state which games or types of games?
    Yes. TW series, Crysis, other shooters, Minecraft
    9) How many hours of battery life do you need?
    Irrelevant.
    10) Would you prefer to see the notebooks you're considering before purchasing it or buying a notebook on-line without seeing it is OK?
    I would prefer to see a picture.
    11) What OS do you prefer? Windows (XP or Vista or Windows 7), Mac OS, Linux, etc.
    Windows
    Screen Specifics

    12) From the choices below, what screen resolution(s) would you prefer? Keep in mind screen size in conjunction with resolution will play a large role in overall viewing comfort level. Everyone is different. Some like really small text, while others like their text big and easy to read. Click here for Screen resolution information.
    I'm happy with 1366x786 and higher
    13) Do you want a Glossy/reflective screen or a Matte/non-glossy screen?
    Not sure.
    Build Quality and Design

    14) Are the notebook's looks and stylishness important to you?
    Somewhat
    15) When are you buying this laptop?
    Within the next month.
    16) How long do you want this laptop to last?
    5 years.
    Notebook Components

    17) How much hard drive space do you need; 80GB to 640GB? Do you want a SSD drive?
    Over 160, don't know what SSD is.
    18) Do you need an optical drive? If yes, a CDRW/DVD-ROM, DVD Burner or Blu-Ray drive?
    CDRW/DVD
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  17. #17
    karamazovmm's Avatar スマトラ警備隊
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    Alright then either the AW m17xr3 or the sager NP8170 is your best bet.

    I do prefer the AW on 17'', since it packs a good screen from the start and the amd switchable gpu, thus more battery life, people are getting 4-5hours, which the NP8170 with the 6970m cant do. However this point is kind of moot, since a 17'' is pretty much going to stay on a desk.

    I do however advise to get the Np8150, which is the 15'' version of the Np8170, packing the same power at a more reasonable size and weight for travel purposes.

    A basic good config would be:

    CPU: i7 2630qm (you dont need the added power of the other processors)
    GPU: 6970m (you dont need to break the bank with the gtx 485m, which only adds 5-7% of more performance, but cost 250 more)
    RAM: get the basic option and upgrade yourself, I dont remember if the AW have 4 ram slots, but the sager have it, so you can have 12gb, with just more 80 bucks

    SSD is basically a thumbdrive, it uses the same type of memory, and is basically one of the most noteworthy upgrades to add that snap to the pc, its pretty darn fast, opens programs faster, boots faster the pc and all that. And no it wont benefit gaming, only loading times would be improved.

    Now if you go the sager way (get the NP8150!), them get it from a reseller, some good ones are falcon NW, xoticpc, origin (they are owned by the AW heads, before they sold the brand to dell), lpc digital, malibal, and a ton more. For googling purposes just type either NP8150 (sager) or P150HM (clevo) and get a quote on a price, and talk to the resellers.

    If you are going the NP8150 way, get the screen upgrade, its one of the best screens out there, with a 95% color gamut, and superb contrast, and its matte, avoiding you to see yourself while gaming (which is a problem on the m17x)

    if you can get more money the m18x and the clevo x7200 are the best of what you can get on gaming therms in the mobile world.

    To give you an idea of the power of the 6970m, get some benchmarks on the 6850 (desktop), this is what you are going to get.

    BTW there is a review of the x7200 from avadirect (another sager/clevo reseller) on anandtech, just check the crossfire performance is basically 100%, which is pretty awesome

    The very ugly forgive, but beauty is essential - Vinicius de Moraes

  18. #18
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    Thanks very much. Very good advice as usual.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  19. #19
    Gorrrrrn's Avatar Citizen
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    Jan 2007
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    might be worth a minor update to tell people about the sandy bridge i3 etc CPUs.

    the CPUs have a four digit number (rather than the earlier 3 digit) and are said to be more power efficient.

    now for ultra-slim notebooks too:
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-20...#ixzz1SMYP6Pqk

    --
    another UK supplier for good deals:
    http://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/

  20. #20
    karamazovmm's Avatar スマトラ警備隊
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    Aug 2009
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    Default Re: Laptop buying Guide

    yeah I have to do that, might do it in the weekend, have to talk about mcrusty in unifying the guides for desktops too. This thing is pretty outdated, but the basics are the same.

    The very ugly forgive, but beauty is essential - Vinicius de Moraes

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