Response to falsehoods in forwarded email about the Jihad

[JohnShepherd]

This past Sunday my Bishop of the local congregation that I attended asked everyone if anyone had a Muslim friend he could contact to ask some questions. Being in a rural community in Canada know one but I (who had attended college in a city) could answer in the affirmative. He approached me later, told me about a letter that had been forwarded to him, as well as all the other local spiritual leaders by one of the other pastors in town. It was an email purporting to say that all Muslims have a duty to kill the infidel (i.e. everyone else) by a mainstream Imam. He wanted an informed response to the other pastor, as he knew that the letter was basically false in a lot of ways. I told him that I could probably draft something, as I had a taken a World Religions course, and had written a paper on Islam.

My question is, could anyone here help me respond to this in an academic fashion? Preferably Muslims, but anyone else is welcome.

Here is the letter:

The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in Canada , especially in the minority races!!! Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my federal prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: 'Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?' There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, 'Non-believers!' I responded, 'So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can have a place in heaven.. Is that correct?' The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.' He sheepishly replied, 'Yes.' I then stated, 'Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to guarantee them a place in heaven!' The Imam was speechless! I continued, 'I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a question: Would you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in order for you to go to heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and He wants you to be there with me?' You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the Diversification training seminar were not happy with my way of dealing with the Islamic Imam, and exposing the truth about the Muslims' beliefs. In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in Canada to elect the Prime Minister! I think everyone in Canada should be required to read this. There is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us send it on! This is your chance to make a difference... This is a true story. The man who walks with God always gets to his destination. If you have a pulse you have a purpose. FOR GODS' SAKE! SEND THIS ON

As-Salāmu `Alaykum to my Muslim brethern,

A concerned Christian

[removeduser_487563287433]

Google the letter. It appears on a load of hate sites. Point that out.

[Manco]

'Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven.

That's just patently false. So if the premise is false, the rest can't be any better.
Besides, do you actually believe someone experienced what's in the letter? It's so obviously a lie just to discredit Muslims. No names and no details in stuff like this is fishy, hell I'd say it was fishy even with names.

[JohnShepherd]

That's just patently false. So if the premise is false, the rest can't be any better.
Besides, do you actually believe someone experienced what's in the letter? It's so obviously a lie just to discredit Muslims. No names and no details in stuff like this is fishy, hell I'd say it was fishy even with names.

No, I don't believe it in the least. The problem is that knowing half the pastors and priests in my town, a lot of them will believe it. My clergy member, who is a fairly young guy, just wants to tell them to calm the **** down....in an informed response.

[ShADoW]

Imams have tendencies of saying such stuff, but in front of a meeting with other Catholics and Protestants seems questionable.

[Thanatos]

It's a false letter.

[Simon Cashmere]

This past Sunday my Bishop of the local congregation that I attended asked everyone if anyone had a Muslim friend he could contact to ask some questions

If he wants the truth, tell him to buy:

War and peace in the law of Islam.
by Majid Khadduri

Published in 1955, Johns Hopkins Press (Baltimore).

It's written by an Iraqi muslim academic. Other Western writers say similar things, however, they of course biased or are incapable of understanding the nuances of the arcane and very very special unknowable Islamc beliefs.

Oh and as to the letter, its just one of those chain letter things. But whatever works, if it gets people talking and at least discussing this topic, that's good.

[Phier]

Just show documentation of how well Muslim minority populations integrate in the West, and how Muslim majority nations do not inhibit other religions.

[green tea]

This past Sunday my Bishop of the local congregation that I attended asked everyone if anyone had a Muslim friend he could contact to ask some questions. Being in a rural community in Canada know one but I (who had attended college in a city) could answer in the affirmative. He approached me later, told me about a letter that had been forwarded to him, as well as all the other local spiritual leaders by one of the other pastors in town. It was an email purporting to say that all Muslims have a duty to kill the infidel (i.e. everyone else) by a mainstream Imam. He wanted an informed response to the other pastor, as he knew that the letter was basically false in a lot of ways. I told him that I could probably draft something, as I had a taken a World Religions course, and had written a paper on Islam.

My question is, could anyone here help me respond to this in an academic fashion? Preferably Muslims, but anyone else is welcome.

Here is the letter:

The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in Canada , especially in the minority races!!! Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my federal prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: 'Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?' There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, 'Non-believers!' I responded, 'So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can have a place in heaven.. Is that correct?' The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just been caught with his hand in the cookie jar.' He sheepishly replied, 'Yes.' I then stated, 'Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to guarantee them a place in heaven!' The Imam was speechless! I continued, 'I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a question: Would you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in order for you to go to heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and He wants you to be there with me?' You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the Diversification training seminar were not happy with my way of dealing with the Islamic Imam, and exposing the truth about the Muslims' beliefs. In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in Canada to elect the Prime Minister! I think everyone in Canada should be required to read this. There is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us send it on! This is your chance to make a difference... This is a true story. The man who walks with God always gets to his destination. If you have a pulse you have a purpose. FOR GODS' SAKE! SEND THIS ON

As-Salāmu `Alaykum to my Muslim brethern,

A concerned Christian

This letter is clearly anti-muslim propaganda. In this fiction the writer is a clever, calm person with which you can identify, and the imam is a moron that is easily tricked to tell the audience "the truth" (how evil he and the islam is). I have not been there, so I can´t know if it exactly happened like described or if it happened at all. Exactly as I can not know if the nazi propaganda stories about jews, communists or homosexuals were true or not. Exactly as I can not know what really happened at Guantanamo or in other prisons. Exactly as I can not know if the evil capitalists really behaved like the soviet propaganda machine told their citizens.

According to official roman sources, the early christians behaved very bad. They burned Rome, slaughtered innocent children, poisoned wells etc. etc.. I was not in Rome at that time, so I can´t know if that is true. And, as I said, I was not at that event mentioned in the e-mail, so I do not know if the imam really said those things.

But what I can tell is that this letter was written for a special purpose. And that purpose is to create hate between the followers of the religions. Maybe you should tell your Bishop that christians should not spread rumours that lead only to hate and are created exactly for that purpose, especially when it is doubtful that this story is true, but undoubtful that this is a well-written piece of propaganda to manipulate the not-so intelligent readers. Because people like this Bishop are not the problem- they think for themselves. Other people may be more easily manipulated.

I am no muslim, but I know there are people from a muslim background on this forum, and maybe not all of them are tired of responding always to the same questions and will help further and correct me if I am wrong. And since you learned about World Religions, it is possible that you know much more than I do. But maybe it helps nonetheless.

Islam has no centralized hierarchy, so one Imam says this and an other says that- the followers must decide which Imam they believe. There may be some Imams that preach against the infidels as described in this letter, but there may be also many others that do not preach in that way (and are therefore boring and not interesting for the media). I sincerely doubt that "most Imams" have declared a jihad, but some may have.

Then about the concept of Jihad- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad (Wikipedia)
For me, it is a little bit long and boring to read, but it clearly shows that "killing infidels" is just a very special case of a jihad, while jihad also means for example "inner struggle for faith".

I also do not know if it is a command to muslims to kill infidels, since I never read the Quran in old arabic, but I also doubt it. Hundreds of years lived christians and jews under different arabic and turkish governments, and they had to pay higher taxes, but were not killed.

Even if there were passages in the Quran that would tell things like that, maybe a careful reader would find as many passages in the Bible that could be easily misunderstood, or are not used today. I sometimes read in the Bible and am often surprised what can be found there and could be turned against christians if quoted out of context and with the intent to prove how evil christians are. I assume your Bishop has read more in the Bible than I have and can tell you many quotes that are in this way.

-Rereading it, I hope this is at least a little bit helpful. I think the best part is that christians should not spread false rumours of hate. Maybe your Bishop can work with that.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Guys, seriously, Google the letter. It appears on loads of hate-sites. The OP's story either is not quite true or the priest has been visiting hate-sites or is in contact with people who do.

[green tea]

Guys, seriously, Google the letter. It appears on loads of hate-sites. The OP's story either is not quite true or the priest has been visiting hate-sites or is in contact with people who do.

I agree. But it is also important that this Bishop answers to this letter, because not everyone will google it, and maybe some misinformed recipients will be manipulated and preach about it- I think this is what the Bishop is concerned about. It could of course be a useful argument to show that it is a piece of propaganda by showing that this letter is not a story of a friend, but a netstory. In short, Ferrets54, I agree, but to give answers to this is also important.

[motiv-8]

If he wants the truth, tell him to buy:

War and peace in the law of Islam.
by Majid Khadduri

How devilish of you, telling people to buy a long out-of-print book that costs some $150 nowadays. Come on out, Khadduri, we know you're in there, you rascally capitalist.

Anyway, at least the writer of the letter has a basic grasp of dialectics, although it is employed nowhere nearly as skillfully as the Socratic tradition has demonstrated. Using a silent, straw version of an opponent in order to deliver a killing blow is one of the oldest rhetorical tricks in the book and sadly most people will fall for it even at this level.

[Simon Cashmere]

How devilish of you, telling people to buy a long out-of-print book that costs some $150 nowadays. Come on out, Khadduri, we know you're in there, you rascally capitalist.

My copy was printed in 2006. And you can get it as cheaply as $95. As I said before, it is on the US Army's War College reading list, as it should be.

Khaddurri died in 2007.

[Sher Khan]

Unfortunately.

Were he alive he might explain in short how wrongly people interpret his work.

[motiv-8]

Unfortunately.

Were he alive he might explain in short how wrongly people interpret his work.

How do you mean?

My copy was printed in 2006. And you can get it as cheaply as $95. As I said before, it is on the US Army's War College reading list, as it should be.

If I were to get all the works by Khadduri that I wanted to, I'd be about half a grand in the hole. That's not happening ATM.

Khaddurri died in 2007.

Yeah, I've never been good with facetiousness anyway.

[Simon Cashmere]

How do you mean?

If I were to get all the works by Khadduri that I wanted to, I'd be about half a grand in the hole. That's not happening ATM.

Yeah, I've never been good with facetiousness anyway.

That's where I'm here to help.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I was going to purchase a copy for the USMC Library if they didn't have it, but, luckily, they do.

http://grc04w.grc.usmcu.edu/search~S...+1908&7%2C%2C8

[Sher Khan]

How do you mean?

The usual, misappropriations and the like.

We've seen how certain individuals have misused it on this forum already, and in an Amazon review we see:

"The 1955 edition of "War and Peace in the Law of Islam" provides a pre 9-11 examination of Islam that is refreshingly devoid of the current era of political correctness and academic appeasement... Khadduri lays out the insights needed to understand a Seventh Century Threat to the 21st Century."

All of which would make Khadduri spin in his grave, out of his burial cloth, out of the ground, and land on the nearest keyboard desperately typing a condemning response from beyond the grave.

If I were to get all the works by Khadduri that I wanted to, I'd be about half a grand in the hole. That's not happening ATM.

Yeah, I've never been good with facetiousness anyway.

They are masterpieces. Do you really need to pay those utility bills this month?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Suck it up, marine!

[Poet]

One thing, Christians need to understand- It was in Christianity that Pope was taken as representative of God and he used to give clearance chits to people after death in turn of money.He still listens your confessions as God but no Muslim ever needed to tell or an Imam ever dared to force us to tell before him what we have committed. It was also not Islam but in Christianity that religious book was not to be allowed to be read by everyone but only priest could read and define bible as his right of many.

Even if some Imam would ask me to do such a heinous act, I would first ask him logic from Qura'n and Hadiths of Prophet (pbuh).And as he definitely would be fail to give reason I would as a responsible Muslim publish such a non-sense. So number 1.Be sure that mostly in Islam, Imams or Mullahs had to justify what they are saying by reference to Qura'n and Hadith, which they cannot prove number 2. We Muslims are bound to investigate the fact and then to accept,propagate and act. So we would teach such an Imam or Mullah a lesson if he would say so.

He who harms a non-muslim, harms me, and he who harms me, harms Allah. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

[motiv-8]

That's where I'm here to help.

Well, that doesn't help me right now, but it could in the future.

All of which would make Khadduri spin in his grave, out of his burial cloth, out of the ground, and land on the nearest keyboard desperately typing a condemning response from beyond the grave.

And what would he say?

They are masterpieces. Do you really need to pay those utility bills this month?

You haven't lived until you've read masterpieces with a red-light! And you also won't see too well again.

[Sher Khan]

And what would he say?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...22#post6121922