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  1. #1
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default The situation in Italy:

    Things of interest, since we have been discussing how to make the Roman campaign more difficult:

    "The importance of Capua increased steadily during the 3rd century BC, and at the beginning of the Second Punic War it was considered to be only slightly behind Rome and Carthage themselves, and was able to furnish 30,000 infantry and 4,000 cavalry. Until after the defeat of Cannae it remained faithful to Rome, but, after a vain demand that one of the consuls should always be selected from it or perhaps in order to secure regional supremacy in the event of a Carthaginian victory, it defected to Hannibal, who made it his winter quarters: he and his army were voluntarily received by Capua. Livy and others have suggested that the luxurious conditions were Hannibal's Cannae because his troops became soft and demoralized by luxurious living. Historians from Bosworth Smith onwards have been sceptical of this, observing that his troops gave as good account of themselves in battle after that winter as before. After a long siege it was taken by the Romans in 211 BC and severely punished (Second Battle of Capua); its magistrates and communal organization were abolished, the inhabitants who weren't killed lost their civic rights, and its territory was declared ager publicus (Roman state domain). Parts of it were sold in 205 BC and 199 BC, another part was divided among the citizens of the new colonies of Volturnum and Liternum established near the coast in 194 BC, but the greater portion of it was reserved to be let by the state."

    We're talking here, in our Roman campaign, about a 217-216BC time frame where Rome is severely threatened by invasion in the form of Hannibal's forces in the north, and the paper thin allegiance of several regions to Rome. Cannae eventually falling to Hannibal, and Capua, over a political dispute, switching sides and becoming his ally. I guess if we follow the 'letter' of history, then both Cannae and Capua should start out as Roman possessions. But, for the sake of game play and challenge, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to stretch the truth a bit and give both Cannae and Capua to the 'Rebel Roman' faction that 'could' be created out of the Free Barb faction in the Roman campaign ONLY.

    The net result of this would be to cut Italy in half, and isolate Rome from it's southern territories...thus presenting the problem of 'transgression' getting it's troops to the north from any southern region, and truly isolating Rome as the only place the player will be able to effectively defend himself. This would be even more of an issue because Rome starts out with a population decline, so the player immediately has to start building pop. growth buildings or the city's population will be drained quickly. It also means you'll have a two front war with Hannibal in the north, and rebellious cities in the south. This way, whether you fight Hannibal or not at the start, you'll still face a Carthaginian threat in the north, and rebellion next door in the south.....not to mention the Boii sitting in Bononia just waiting for you to make a mistake.

    I guess the other way this could be done would be to have both Cannae and Capua revolt in 216BC, and maybe spawn a Carthage army next to Cannae. Regardless of whether it's Hannibal or not, the threat 'implies' Hannibal's presence....but that's scripting. Cannae could revolt to Carthage, and Capua to the Rebel Romans.

    Thoughts on this?

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    well i think it will be to much for the delitacte finacial situation you always have on hand, but other than that it sounds interesting, thou i like canne and cupa being rebel roman and possibly even have a rebel allied legion to defend itself

  3. #3

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    This would be only on the Roman modfoldered campaign, so yeah, why not.
    But let's not make it too hard either, there will be new players.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    I would suggest having them revolt in response to Hannibal's victories. We could then also script a Socii war more easily too.


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  5. #5
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    Well, I've gotten 50 years or so into one campaign, and even with Tone's OLD unit maint. cost settings, I really didn't feel that I was financially broke. It was tight, yes, but I was 'mostly' able to do what I wanted. However, that can be (and probably is) related to how I play...very slow and meticulous, building up economy, never 'starting' a war, playing defensively and even using 'guerrilla tactics' to disrupt and irritate my enemies......like taking Carthage, sacking it, and then letting them have it back because I really can't hold it. I'm sure taking Capua and Cannae out of the picture would hurt economically at first, but I don't see that as a crippling blow altogether.

    As far as scripting it, sure. But I would say, in 216BC (the next year), they both go over whether Hannibal is victorious or not. Someone beating him is going to be (I think) the rare occurrence, so most of the time he's either going to be taking Arretium (or trying) or in Liguria gathering more forces.

    The Socii war would also be cool.

    But, I'm getting ahead of myself here...I'm struggling with trying to fix the Roman names right now. Very tedious...

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  6. #6

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    Well, I've gotten 50 years or so into one campaign, and even with Tone's OLD unit maint. cost settings, I really didn't feel that I was financially broke. It was tight, yes, but I was 'mostly' able to do what I wanted. However, that can be (and probably is) related to how I play...very slow and meticulous, building up economy, never 'starting' a war, playing defensively and even using 'guerrilla tactics' to disrupt and irritate my enemies......like taking Carthage, sacking it, and then letting them have it back because I really can't hold it. I'm sure taking Capua and Cannae out of the picture would hurt economically at first, but I don't see that as a crippling blow altogether.

    Does this mean that we should increase the amount of money we can extract from Rome and the various Latin states?



    As far as scripting it, sure. But I would say, in 216BC (the next year), they both go over whether Hannibal is victorious or not. Someone beating him is going to be (I think) the rare occurrence, so most of the time he's either going to be taking Arretium (or trying) or in Liguria gathering more forces.
    If Hannibal failed to win a decisive battle, I don't think there is a need for them to go over. I mean one reason Cannae is extremely influencial in regards to getting the various Italian states in the South to defect to Hannibal is due to the fact that Hannibal's position in Italy was completely changed.

    Before Cannae, they are essentially a rag tag army ( this does not mean they are not a well trained army) that is going to collaspe due to supply, and the main reason why Hannibal moved to Cannae was due to the ambundance of food in that region. Given that this is the case, there is little to no incentive for anyone to join an army that is having a hard time sustainaining themselves.

    After Cannae, the carthagian army's position in Italy was completely transformed from being a rag tag army to the dominant force in the Italian peninsula.

    So I think that we should script it to ensure that those cities in the south at the very least only join Hannibal only after he has gained a decisive battle, and wiped out most of the Roman army.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    Our Roman campaign might start to inspire fear. Or maybe that's just Hannibal...
    O how small a portion of earth will hold us when we are dead, who ambitiously seek after the whole world while we are living.

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  8. #8

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    well my current roman campaign i am really feeling my ecomomy tighten. After i beatcarthage I basicly sat and built up my economy for awile to give me room to actually build more legions and start to build up the former carthagian cities. After awile I was able to levy 5 legions, so i attacked macedon who were engaged in a 2 front war with sparta to the south and dacia to the north and took 4 of their settlements, leaving them with only heartland macedon and 1 notherly territory. What I planned to do next was finish them off and then turn to Sparta, but the problem i am having right now is the gauls just attacked me and are pushing really hard in Eastern spain, and in northern italy. I am slowly repulsing them and am putting the greek campaign on hold and am trying to counter attack to massilia where i will hold my ground as it is a good defensible area. However i am only able to levy 1 legion maybe 2 to hold spain and northern italy.

    Overall it is pretty fun and balanced thou i would say one more very slight incease to the economy would be perfect.

    BTW after i take greece and my economy stabalizes I will get the reform legions and then take all of Gaul.

    back to the topic on hand maybe give the romans a little more starting cash to deal with the early threat of a 2 front war

  9. #9

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    I will say going after Carthage is going to hurt you economically. The cities in N. Africa/Iberia simply can't supply what it takes to conquer them. I'm usually a fan of encircling the N. Mediterranean/Sicily (Segestica all the way to where the Kingdom of Epirus used to be) and then expand into Greece up to Byzantion. It's easy to hold with the exception of S. Gaul/the East. The hardest part is taking it all from Mace/Sparta. They can become juggernauts easily and don't go down if you let up early. Sparta betrayed me during my fight with Macedon and I'm now fighting both. I've had to retreat back to Edessa/Dyrrachium till I get the reforms and can finally bring the pain!
    O how small a portion of earth will hold us when we are dead, who ambitiously seek after the whole world while we are living.

    Roma Surrectum II Beta Tester/Researcher

  10. #10

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    Hmmmm....not entirely true. By then, Hannibal had already thrashed the Roman army soundly at least twice - sure, by means of trickery, but nevertheless, solid wins.


    Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    Quote Originally Posted by tone View Post
    Hmmmm....not entirely true. By then, Hannibal had already thrashed the Roman army soundly at least twice - sure, by means of trickery, but nevertheless, solid wins.
    Yeah, but his victories in the earlier two battles didn't make a large number of Italian states defect to him. Most of my views is based on the thesis put forwarded John F. Shean. His thesis put everything into perspective, in regards to Hannibal's movement in Italy.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    Fair enough.

    However, we don't want to completely kill the novice player with disaster after disaster racking up against them, and yet challenge the more experienced ones.


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  13. #13
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    I agree as far as Cannae going over to Hannibal...that was really a 'forced issue' after he destroyed the Roman army.

    However, Capua's defection was a 'political' issue based on Rome's refusal allow one Consul to 'always' be selected from it. Now, if you read between the lines here, and understand that Rome, Capua and Carthage (the city) were relatively on an even footing in terms of wealth and 'perceived' respect, you can see that Capua was trying to basically blackmail Rome into making them more politically powerful, and must have believed that even if Hannibal didn't win out, they could still compete with Rome. So I see their revolt as 'related to' but not necessarily 'dependent on' Hannibal's presence. In fact it could well be more related to Rome's treatment of it's allies and the coming Socii War than anything else.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  14. #14

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    Has anyone read "Rubicon"? - fantastic narrative history. I think it illustrates very well the Social War and the issues related to that. Ultimately it was all about being unequal partners despite providing Rome with large parts of her army.


    Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    But how are the players going to resolve the socii war? When the Romans started to give people citizenship, those who are rebelling started to lay down their arms and surrender.

    The problem with the RTW engine is that the AI would hardly surrender.

  16. #16
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    I have just finished redoing all of the Roman names. They are now historical, and there are 325 variations of gens and cognomen, all based on Roman families that actually existed (as far as I am able to verify, anyway), and 17 historical praenomina which were widely used....so that's 5,425 variations that are possible.

    I'm also in the process of converting the Free Barbs into the 'Roman Rebels' in the Roman campaign (in the Play_Test folder for now), and have a bit of work to do there yet.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  17. #17

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    That's absolutely brilliant, looking forward to playing with historical names!

    **RS Dev Team***Reciprocal Repper!* RIP Calvin- you will be missed

  18. #18

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    One option which we discussed before would be that the lower level of Roman barracks cause a high degree of unrest in the Italian provinces, but upgrading to the roman fort settles this and provides Roman citizenship (allowing you to recruit Roman cohorts rather than allied ones).


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  19. #19
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    It has to be the 'field_mars'.....(Campus Martius)....because the Roman Fortress is a post-Marian Reforms building (you can't even build it until you've gotten the 'Imperial Reforms'. It's also the first barracks level where you can recruit any Roman unit outside of Rome (pre-Marian, anyway). I can try to 'instill' some unhappiness this way, but I fear it will only lower the happiness a certain amount, but not enough to overcome how close the regions are to the capital.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  20. #20

    Default Re: The situation in Italy:

    Do you have any scripting you'd like me to do on this?


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