Knights' orders

[Zavischa]

Hi!
Knight's order as a faction is a great idea. So many orders Calatrava, Santiago, St. Lazarus, Teutonic, Templars etc. I think you should add one order more. It is Fratres Milites Christi de Dobrin. An important polish order from XIIIc. There you can see guys who are reenacting this order. It's sign is a sword and a jewish star. Think of it please

[Copperknickers II]

It is a good idea. As soon as you find a way to add in 10 more faction slots, you get back to us, right?

Thanks for the heads up about the Milites de Dobrin though, i'll suggest that.

[Hengest]

Zavischa, cheers for the support and the info.
I think we did consider the Order, but since it was at its highest under 50 knights and covered a fairly short period of activity we felt that it was not a great idea. Also, our Polish consultants said that the Order was mainly a German rather than Polish one and a foriegn attempt to colonise Polish expansion and policing of its borders. HRE being the USA of its day! So, we could still consider it but you will ahve to really convince us. Keep in mind that the Monastic Orders are all tied to option forks in the tech tree and since the Orders have all been coded it will require quite some more work. The problem we found with the tech tree was that there were too many orders for the tree to handle, and so it was devised to code a two level option branch. Sounds quite confusing, which I hope at least makes it clear how difficult it will be to re-work the code.

[Zavischa]

I see. That's right. Order of Dobrin at its highest has got 50 or 48 knights. But your polish consultants I think were wrong. I'm reenacting that order so I know a bit of it. At the beginning crusaders of Meklemburgia "formed" this order. So yes, firstly it was german. But later polish prince Konrad Mazowiecki helped it a lot and in it's documents which survived is said a lot that there were many POLISH knights. The order was small but important in Poland in XIIIc.

[Hengest]

Ok well I will defintely look into it. The main advisor was Silesian_Noble from Eastern Europe Total War. THanks for the info man

[Zavischa]

No problem. Hope it would work. But if there isn't enough space for fraction of Milites Christi you could make guilds of them, like templars or hospitallers in vanilla And the fraction to get it would posess Dobrin or Drohicin, or Santir

[Hengest]

Indeed, all the Military Orders are represented by buildings, units and traits right now in DOTS. No plans for any guilds (since there are only 15 guild slots and about as many Orders- which would mean we would need to give all guild slots to Catholic factions. So we decided to remove all Orders from the Guilds system.

[Zavischa]

Ah, I see. When will be something known if Milites Christi were added to a mod?

[Zavischa]

Could anybody answer me?

[Copperknickers II]

Hross is still looking into it. I think Silesian noble is away at the moment.

[intel]

I, as a Polish researcher, am giving it a big NO. Unfortunately.

Poland has only limited amount of specific units. As much as I like the idea of this unit as a AOR, I must also take into account
a) the hardcoded limits of unit total number
b) the limit for Polish roster which can be used in a much better way (f.e. for Silesian Knights or Masovian Nobles)
c) the amount of work DotS texturers can put into this rather unsignificant (frankly) unit.

So, niestety, it would be rather unpractical to include them. Perhaps when the mod will come out, you could make your personal modification-re-texturing is not much of a problem (though messing with the game files is )

Pozdrawiam i życzę powodzenia waszemu Zakonowi

[Silesian_Noble]

I, as a Polish researcher, am giving it a big NO. Unfortunately.

Poland has only limited amount of specific units. As much as I like the idea of this unit as a AOR, I must also take into account
a) the hardcoded limits of unit total number
b) the limit for Polish roster which can be used in a much better way (f.e. for Silesian Knights or Masovian Nobles)
c) the amount of work DotS texturers can put into this rather unsignificant (frankly) unit.

So, niestety, it would be rather unpractical to include them. Perhaps when the mod will come out, you could make your personal modification-re-texturing is not much of a problem (though messing with the game files is )

Pozdrawiam i życzę powodzenia waszemu Zakonowi

Yep. From the other side, I'm thinking, if Bohemian got the Red Star Order, then why Poland shouldn't have its Brothers of Dobrin? Take a look at the description of that Bohemian Order in wiki. They were knights only by its name, there are no reliable records of those knights fights in DotS timeframe. They were looking after churches and hospitals, not castles and boarders. While DotS gave them some excellent and... fictional units. On the contrary the Dobrin Knights were true man at arms. During its short 20-30y history they fought much more then that Bohemian red Star Knights during its many hundreds of years existance!

I think that the addition of the Dobrin Order could be interesting and pretty nice feature for the players. It would suit nicly to the DotS mod's concept where the orders play a significant role. But if adding Dobrin's Order units to Poland means cutting the slots of Polish faction's specific units, then from the historiocity point of view such move is incorrect. It is better to invest that slots to some units typical for Polish medieval militarism.

We could also think about the Dobrin Order in broarder frames. Why did not they develop to a larger military Order? Could such case happen? I think yes. If the Teutonic Order was not expelled from Transylvania in 1225y, they would not settle in Prussia. If Teutonic knights did not settle in Prussia, the majority of Dobrin Knights would not join them and would probably grow to greater importance as the only Polish military order.

[sumskilz]

We could also think about the Dobrin Order in broarder frames. Why did not they develop to a larger military Order? Could such case happen? I think yes. If the Teutonic Order was not expelled from Transylvania in 1225y, they would not settle in Prussia. If Teutonic knights did not settle in Prussia, the majority of Dobrin Knights would not join them and would probably grow to greater importance as the only Polish military order.

I think this is a fair point and should be considered.

Take a look at the description of that Bohemian Order in wiki. They were knights only by its name, there are no reliable records of those knights fights in DotS timeframe. They were looking after churches and hospitals, not castles and boarders. While DotS gave them some excellent and... fictional units. On the contrary the Dobrin Knights were true man at arms. During its short 20-30y history they fought much more then that Bohemian red Star Knights during its many hundreds of years existance!

Now you're last statement here is likely true (despite the fact that I don't trust the Wiki), but as far as fictional units, there is only one Bohemian Red Star Knight unit in DotS. Though I can't account for the historicity of it because I didn't do the research, I doubt we just invented it from nothing.

[Silesian_Noble]

Now you're last statement here is likely true (despite the fact that I don't trust the Wiki), but as far as fictional units, there is only one Bohemian Red Star Knight unit in DotS. Though I can't account for the historicity of it because I didn't do the research, I doubt we just invented it from nothing.

I thought it had at least two units, including a longbowmen. But I could be wrong, it was a long time ago I saw that Order's preview.

[sumskilz]

It's just the one unit, but they are armed with a type of long composite bow that was used in Bohemia. Seems like an odd weapon choice for knights, but I assume Resurrection came across a reference to them using them.

[Silesian_Noble]

It's just the one unit, but they are armed with a type of long composite bow that was used in Bohemia. Seems like an odd weapon choice for knights, but I assume Resurrection came across a reference to them using them.

I think that there are no references about the weaponry equipment, as those 'knights' of red star were priests and medicals, not warriors. From the other hand the usage of composite bow on Bohemian land in medieval times is a quite reliable fact. Reliable and unusual, as western Slavs were not custom to use that kind of weaponry in medieval period (later period is totally different story). So I guess that red star warrior is kind a invention of your Bohemian researchers. Partly based on facts (the usage of composite bow in Bohemia), partly made up for the benefit of the gamaplay (a great looking and extraordinarily equipped Order warrior).

[intel]

I'd say: delete it and use the free slot for more valuable and historically accurate AOR unit. Silesian Knights for example.

[Walkman810i]

This is an old post from Resurrection who is the Bohemian researcher for DotS

Bowmenship was tradition in Czech lands adopted from Avars in 7th century. Most common bows were composite bows. Bows were used as supporting and initial force in Bohemian army equiped often with poisonous arrows. They were used during most of Przemyslid era.

Order of the Cross with Red Star started as splinter of Hospitaller order and was recognized as military one by the Pope. Their main activity is health care and thus this unit is only additional flavour for this order to represent its military component. They wear order's robe and as for hoods, you may be aware, that basically EVERYONE in middle ages used some kind of head cover. In case of order monks it is (and always was) the hood. I really don't know what is so fantasy about it...

[Silesian_Noble]

But Ressurection gave no evidence that Red Star Order had military arm. Simply because it didn't have such. Just have a look at Bohemia territory - catholic neighbours all around. So who would they fight with? Oh yes, Bohemia land was the place of probably the largest herretical movement in medieval Europe - the Hussite revolution. How did the Red Star Order behave in that time of the great challange? Hussites ploundered order's possesions, killed the pastor of St. Stephen's at Prague and the Order itself almost collapsed completely... No military defense was recorded. In such circumstances giving that order a military unit is beyond historiocity.

[motyc]

Order of the Cross with Red Star was really an important one in Bohemia, but with absolutely NO military function. They owned land, few little strongholds and hospitals. Economically they were important, but if someone really fight for them, that were some mercenaries and subordinates. And if we talking about model of those Bohemian order knights - they are beautiful, but total fantasy.