Now that the "Hardcore" Fans Are Less Important, What Can We Expect Down the Line?

I wanted to capitalize on CA's recent board presence to discuss modding support (namely, to suggest that in lieu of mod tools, CA could help with small things, like they helped Darth with the BAI). I wanted to be as fair as possible, so I was reviewing what Kieran had said so far.

To make it short, I stumbled on a particularly juicy morsel that I missed the first time around. Perhaps I'm just late to the party, but the message was so clear, I'm not sure why it hasn't had a more prominent place in the forum's discussions. So here it is, along with the quote to which Mr. Brigden is responding:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Quote:
However this is the TWC. A place where the dedicated player,s, mod creators tend to congregate. Most of us know our TW games and mods backwards. We know when we have the real goods or a botched attempt. The new marketing strategy by Sega/CA has done serious damage to our TWC gathering, Our main platform, mods for the TW series has suffered a serious set back with the way ETW has been coded and released.

[Kieran:]This is a fair point and one we'd like to address. Games need to be marketed. This involves doing articles and the like for the greatest majority of your potential audience. The vast majority of the TW audience are not represented here. As defined in your post, this is a place for those who are our 'hardcore'. To survive and grow commercially CA needs to sell its games to more people. This does not mean we 'dumb down' or 'market to the lowest common denominator' but it does mean we have to spread our focus. In so doing we naturally have less focus on the other groups, including the hardcore. We might not always talk, but we do listen. It's our intent to do more with you guys, but it will never be enough.

First, I want to thank Kieran for his candor and for setting forth so clearly what many people here have sensed over the last year. I certainly understand that CA wants to expand its market share and that, in doing so, they need to appeal to more people. The gaming industry is going through a brutal period, so CA is naturally making sure that they have a solid foundation for growth in the future. That's business. Fair enough.

But it's important to those who continue to invest in CA's products--especially for those who frequent TWC's forums--to understand the subtext beneath the attempts to smooth things over.

Quite simply, the traditional fanbase is not as important as it once was. Changing their market focus is certainly CA's prerogative. I can't hold it against them if they believe that their money lies elsewhere. Business is business.

As Kieran spells out, what we want from a game is of decreased importance. Not that it's irrelevant, but it's not as important as in the past. That helps explain why the mods that people poured hundreds of hours into, that helped beef up sales and extend the life of CA's games for years, are acknowledged but treated implicitly as disposable parts of TW's legacy.

Essentially, there is no quid pro quo--the hardcore fans clearly can't expect the same sort of loyalty from CA that they have extended to CA. It's why for months Kieran never took the few minutes required to send along messages to the community that congregates here.

I don't want to portray CA as completely mercenary, as Kieran et al, are human beings and have feelings and may simply be driven by market forces and the man writing their paychecks. I've certainly been in work situations like that, so I'm willing to grant that possibility. Furthermore, as long as similarly-minded people continue to buy their games, CA will at least make some attempt to keep the "hardcore" fans happy, however meager those efforts might be.

However, for those of you who think that the core design of Napoleon: Total War is aimed at the same people that STW, MTW, RTW, and M2TW were, think again. It is not. Or at least it is not quite as focused on them. Kieran has been kind enough to make that plain.

With all that said, herein lie my questions for the rest of you (at last! ):

• Given the decreased status of the traditional fanbase, how do you think that will shape the future of the series?
• How do you think that will shape NTW?
• Will it come back to haunt CA?
• When Kieran says "It's our intent to do more with you guys," what do you think he's promising? More discussion? Specialized DLC aimed at the old fans?

Edit: Removed the underlining, etc.

This does not mean we 'dumb down' or 'market to the lowest common denominator' but it does mean we have to spread our focus

You seemed to skip this part...

Originally Posted by Pikemen

You seemed to skip this part...

Fair enough, but not appealing to the LCD or "dumbing down" doesn't preclude that the common denominator has changed or that the mean referent for IQ isn't different.

Originally Posted by Pikemen

You seemed to skip this part...

Do you honestly think that's the truth? They got rid of blood. They got rid of historical accuracy. They got rid of everything that could possibly be considered "smart". Do you honestly think nothing was "dumbed" down?

Has the "Hardcore" Fans of any game ever really been that important to the producer? Honestly?

Originally Posted by Majonga

Has the "Hardcore" Fans of any game ever really been that important to the producer? Honestly?

No. Probably not as far as Ca are concerned. We were nice to fall back on when they needed an `uplift` in support (everyone likes praise from fans), but at the end of the day we are most likely very little.

However, whenever they`ve listened, they have always done better for their product`s reputation and word of mouth. MTW2 was one game where I felt CA listened. I know they were the Australian branch but some pomms- er Brits from CA helped make the game too. They made changes such as adding blood (which was one criticism of RTW) and brought back the assassin movies which was defintely a long-time wish of hardcore fans, plus other things.

So while hardcore fans may no longer be important and maybe not even that important ever, they did give CA a GUIDELINE to the things that helped make the TW games a lot better in general.

But that`s all changed now. Hope you new users enjoy your new TW as i`m finished with it. I hang around only to see what happens when NTW for the new users is released....

And in the very unlikely hope that CA will change and go back to their better, old ways.

I can just imagine they'll make "Rome: Total War 3" and make the enemies instantly rout if you click on them, because that's what the casual gamers want.

The rationale that making the game easier will appeal to more buyers is "sound and fury signifying nothing." That is nothing but an excuse for poor craftsmanship, coding and design. Do grappling hooks, no CAI retreat and the melee bug attract casual gamers? Of course not. If CA they made the AI better it would attract more casual gamers, not repel them. A player could even scale up in difficulty and challenge as he won battles. The only coherent argument CA has come up with along these lines is the passive/agressive CAI argument. But surely that could be a simple choice of option boxes to click.

Originally Posted by Huberto

The rationale that making the game easier will appeal to more buyers is "sound and fury signifying nothing." That is nothing but an excuse for poor craftsmanship, coding and design. Do grappling hooks, no CAI retreat and the melee bug attract casual gamers? Of course not. If CA they made the AI better it would attract more casual gamers, not repel them. A player could even scale up in difficulty and challenge as he won battles. The only coherent argument CA has come up with along these lines is the passive/agressive CAI argument. But surely that could be a simple choice of option boxes to click.

Well-said, but it all boils down to one fact: CA is under the false impression that casual gamers prefer a game that's easy as possible over a game that's even slightly challenging.

Originally Posted by RuleBritannia

I can just imagine they'll make "Rome: Total War 3" and make the enemies instantly rout if you click on them, because that's what the casual gamers want.

I think you mean Rome Total War 2, since there has only been one Rome Total War game so far

This arguement still doesnt explain why the game isnt more modding friendly. Although CA want to expand to a greater fanbase and treat us as expendable, why do they make the game hard to mod, and give us no major assistance?

Originally Posted by Emperor Xenophon

This arguement still doesnt explain why the game isnt more modding friendly. Although CA want to expand to a greater fanbase and treat us as expendable, why do they make the game hard to mod, and give us no major assistance?

Right you are.

Originally Posted by erasmus777

When Kieran says "It's our intent to do more with you guys," what do you think he's promising? More discussion? Specialized DLC aimed at the old fans?

Not wishing to be a pedant, but I think it's important to knock this on the head right now.

Keiran is promising NOTHING.

I've commented before on how slippery this guy's language is. Look at it closely.

"It's our intent". Well, that means nothing.

Politicians all talk about being 'committed' to things. Why? Because it sounds like they're going to do something without providing a single fact to which they might be held. If journalists were more professional and exacting, they would say "what exactly does that mean you will do? By when?", but they don't.

Marketers, advertisers and politicians speak the same language. The purpose is to reassure their market and/or create a certain impression without ever in fact promising to deliver anything. 'Climate change' is a great illustration of this. Politicians the world over will talk about how 'committed' they are to addressing climate change, but do you get promises of what will be delivered by when to what effect and at what cost?

Nope. Too hard. [for those who point to Kyoto as a rebuttal, that did involve targets, yet how often do you see reports on which countries met those targets, how they did it, and how much their doing so achieved the stated goals of the whole exercise? Never. Not once in mainstream media reports on Copenhagen did I see a single 2 minutes on this, yet it's the best indicator as to how effective similar 'promises' might prove in future]

The idea is to reassure the public that they (polliticians) have it in hand while ensuring they do not make any definitive statements that might alienate any significant group (except the group that insists on definite action, and there they are relying on the fact that a large proportion of voters assume 'greenies' are just unreasonable thus can be ignored as chronic complainers). Politicians get away with this because most people in developed countries want to believe things can be 'fixed' without any diminishment of our luxuries/standards of living.

Don't fall for the same thing here. Kieran is promising nothing. He's making a statement that appears to indicate the members of this forum will not be ignored (avoiding alienation and providing reassurance) without creating any concrete obligations on his part against which he might be measured in future.

Usual smoke and mirrors. Lost of people will fall for it, just as they do in politics, advertising and marketing the world over.

Cheers
p.s. sorry for length of post; this issue of misleading language/lazy interpretation is a pet hate of mine (not pointing fingers at anyone, btw)....

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Not wishing to be a pedant, but I think it's important to knock this on the head right now.

Keiran is promising NOTHING.

I've commented before on how slippery this guy's language is. Look at it closely.

"It's our intent". Well, that means nothing.

...

Cheers
p.s. sorry for length of post; this issue of misleading language/lazy interpretation is a pet hate of mine (not pointing fingers at anyone, btw)....

Great observations and I certainly can't criticize you for length

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Not wishing to be a pedant, but I think it's important to knock this on the head right now.

Keiran is promising NOTHING.

I've commented before on how slippery this guy's language is. Look at it closely.

"It's our intent". Well, that means nothing.

Politicians all talk about being 'committed' to things. Why? Because it sounds like they're going to do something without providing a single fact to which they might be held. If journalists were more professional and exacting, they would say "what exactly does that mean you will do? By when?", but they don't.

Marketers, advertisers and politicians speak the same language. The purpose is to reassure their market and/or create a certain impression without ever in fact promising to deliver anything. 'Climate change' is a great illustration of this. Politicians the world over will talk about how 'committed' they are to addressing climate change, but do you get promises of what will be delivered by when to what effect and at what cost?

Nope. Too hard. [for those who point to Kyoto as a rebuttal, that did involve targets, yet how often do you see reports on which countries met those targets, how they did it, and how much their doing so achieved the stated goals of the whole exercise? Never. Not once in mainstream media reports on Copenhagen did I see a single 2 minutes on this, yet it's the best indicator as to how effective similar 'promises' might prove in future]

The idea is to reassure the public that they (polliticians) have it in hand while ensuring they do not make any definitive statements that might alienate any significant group (except the group that insists on definite action, and there they are relying on the fact that a large proportion of voters assume 'greenies' are just unreasonable thus can be ignored as chronic complainers). Politicians get away with this because most people in developed countries want to believe things can be 'fixed' without any diminishment of our luxuries/standards of living.

Don't fall for the same thing here. Kieran is promising nothing. He's making a statement that appears to indicate the members of this forum will not be ignored (avoiding alienation and providing reassurance) without creating any concrete obligations on his part against which he might be measured in future.

Usual smoke and mirrors. Lost of people will fall for it, just as they do in politics, advertising and marketing the world over.

Cheers
p.s. sorry for length of post; this issue of misleading language/lazy interpretation is a pet hate of mine (not pointing fingers at anyone, btw)....

Great insight! I could not agree with you more

I would like to add a few Questions to this topic.
When did you (not you personally), anyone become a hardcore TW player?
Was after you where a casual gamer an wanted more from the game?
So by this we all started as casual gamers, an progressed to hardcore, or somewhere in between.
Just a thought.

I almost completely understand where Kieran is coming from, and I think most people who have experience in working for a business will acknowledge that's how things go sometimes. However, here's what I don't quite understand. Why has CA decided to make ETW much less accessible for mod makers? If the hardcore players want a more intense experience, then that's where the modding community comes in. I'm not sure how that would hurt CA in any way, unless they simply don't want players to be spending too much time on any one of their products. So that when a new game comes out, their customers would be buying it instead of continuing to play one of their older titles because the modding community has extended that life those products ten-fold.

Originally Posted by DirtyACE

Why has CA decided to make ETW much less accessible for mod makers? If the hardcore players want a more intense experience, then that's where the modding community comes in. I'm not sure how that would hurt CA in any way, unless they simply don't want players to be spending too much time on any one of their products. So that when a new game comes out, their customers would be buying it instead of continuing to play one of their older titles because the modding community has extended that life those products ten-fold.

Check out what I posted over on ETW side of the house.

Originally Posted by MrIrritation

Wow just hit me CA is in the modding for profit business. Thats why they won't release modding tools to the modders.

Everyone-It's just a game.

I'm sorry, but everyone makes such a big deal out of these 'unfulfilled promises' and all that rot, when in the grand scheme of things, it's not that important. Erasmus, in your first post you talked about how CA is betraying the loyalty their fans showed to them-might I respectfully ask, when have a lot of the people who share your views on TW ever show CA loyalty? You criticize Empire on minor issues, despite the fact it was a whole new engine and would thus have problems, you have been criticizing Napoleon these past few months even before you hardly knew what the game was going to contain and still don't. If you don't give them your loyalty, why do you expect them to give it to you? I fully recognize your frustration in the sense that the 'AI should be more realistic' or 'the sieges can improve' but keep in mind, it's just entertainment. In a previous post, a user compared this to corrupt politicians-if we should be up in arms about an issue like we are here, it should be about politics, not TW.

The simple fact is, no matter how much all of you criticize it, no matter how much you bash CA, you still buy the game. Why? Because while it's easy to criticize, in the end, CA makes the greatest RTS games on the market. Critiscism is all you ever do, bashing the game before it's been released. This happened back in October, when there was hardly any information released yet. You criticize it now and yet you have not played one turn. You are entertained by CA's products they provide, and then question the manner in which they provide it. So I would reccomend you either cease this criticism or find some other game to play.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, I do not intend it to be so, all I'm saying is that we should wait until we've actually played the game before we tear it apart. I would urge you to cease this rampant criticism, for as Benjamin Franklin once put it
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do."

I am not a "hard-core" gamer. But when I found this forum and all the mods for RTW (which I had stopped playing), it was like a whole new world. It was because of all the mods that this "casual" gamer bought M2TW, the kingdoms expansion and ETW. I don't think I am alone on this. If CA really wanted to sell its product to more people, you would think that they would not only be more supportive of the "hard-core" modders, but would actually pitch them as a selling point. "Buy our game and you can have endlessly different gaming experience."

Just my two cents.