Legio III rebels; I hate that

[Paladin247]

It's 191BC and I've been engaged front and flank with the Carthaginians and their damn elephants for what seems like months. We've taken Sicily, Carthage, Hadrumentum and two settlements out east; all told six legions are in Africa. We've been fighting for a week or more in front of the city west of Carthage where four legions are engaged. Well not anymore because Legio III rebelled last night. Tired of slogging thru elephant dung, I guess.

Of course, I immediately dispatched my level 10 assasin and murdered the legate, that lilly livered SOB.

At the time, I was screaming a lot of that great language I learned in the navy at the screen, about how rebelling in the face of the enemy wasn't done. In the light of morning, however, that's probably wrong. In the Roman Legion history wiki on the web, there are several legions listed DD for disbanded under dishonorable conditions for cowardice, notably in the Bavarian Revolt. So it happened; that's what decimation was used for as well.

While I'm ranting, I'm tired of losing legates to suicide by Carthaginian. It's one thing to have the legate hotly engaged in the ranks with his troops; that's leading from the front and commendable. However, in AI controlled legions, more often than that, the legate charges out, alone except for his dismayed guards, into a grouped enemy formation and is shortly among the heroic but stupid dead. Thereafter his legion is very susceptible to panic and of course you have to buy a new tribune, not cheap.

Interestingly, this is a problem that CA didn't fix in MTW either; I don't know about ETW, I haven't played it.

Is there a way of coaxing a rebellious legion back to the fold, or should I just leave them for the Cartho to kill?

[Ejergard]

About deserting generals, this has been discussed many times before, I recommend reading this thread (and my post I link in it), it explains alot.
Prime General Deserting

About the suicidal generals, there is a small workaround that in this mod, giving generals javelins so they will atleast stay ranged for a while. This is a big improvement over melee-generals, since those are the first to die nearly every battle. This issue has been raised many times aswell, and LT has looked into this. But to my knowledge there is nothing that can be done.

You can try to bribe your rebelled army, otherwise you'll have to kill it.
Btw, assassinating enemy generals is against houserules.

[Paladin247]

I don't care about house rules. Thanks for the general info.

[czePowerslave]

I don't care about house rules. Thanks for the general info.

Oh boy.

[Paladin247]

I'm enjoying this mod a lot, but you guys are too much. What difference it makes to you how I play escapes me. Games exist to have fun with. I know more about how I want to have fun than you do. If you don't like it, I think there's a pill you can take for that.

I ran into the same goofy, control freak mentality when I asked about separating the garrison scripts from the 4tpy script, something that I eventually figured out on my own. That thread has had over 300 hits; so I'm not the only one playing that way now.

You might want to take a cue from the Broken Crescent guys who don't whine at folks about how they play and just try to help them out.

I sent a diplomat to bribe the rebels, but no bribe option came up.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Btw, assassinating enemy generals is against houserules.

Wait wait wait..... house rules on single-player? You mean (sort of) cheating by not activating the script? enlighten me

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Wait wait wait..... house rules on single-player? You mean (sort of) cheating by not activating the script? enlighten me

House rules as rules that you can follow when using the script to make the game more fun and difficult.

House Rules

[Lord Thesaurian]

House rules as rules that you can follow when using the script to make the game more fun and difficult.

House Rules

Oh I see. Some of those rules seem fun and logical, but the majority looks more like things that a bored player would do to make the game heavily curved against him. I find that playing on vh/vh is hard enough. If not you can always go into the files amd raise recruitment and building costs for your faction, but this is rather tedious. So I dont really get why they are considered "rules" rather than your style of playing

[Paladin247]

Legio_Italica, I agree w/ you.

In the real military where I spent 31yrs on active service, there is a term used to describe evolutions which have been made to be more difficult than need be in service of some meaningless goal. We called it "practice bleeding".

Some of the SPQR old hands seem to have a religious dedication to these rules. "Not that there's anything wrong with that", as Jerry Seinfeld used to say. They should play as they like and grant others the same courtesy.

As you state, a lot of the houserules are useful and enhance game play; I follow those and don't cheat by giving myself extra money, etc. The legion following cities thing is one and I'm looking fwd to that when I get the Marian reforms. It may be my professional military training, however, that causes me to disregard anything that would give artificial advantage to the enemy. Real tactics are designed to place the enemy in as unfavorable a position as possible so you can stomp the daylights out of him while:
1. Achieving the mission
2. Maximizing enemy casualties
3. Minimizing own casualties.

In accordance with these goals, if I can gang tackle one enemy formation with two legions, I do it in a NY minute. The AI has done it to me. If I can assassinate an enemy general, I do that; the AI has done it to me. The AI has some major advantages already, like enuf money to spawn enormous forces that I could neither afford to raise nor keep in the field.

Currently, I'm in year 166BC of my campaign. I hold all of Italy (less Rome), Sicily, Sardinia, Palma, Africa (less Egypt) and two provinces in Spain where I have seven legions, veterans of kicking Carthage out of Africa. Five legions defend the Po River border with Gaul. Three are on the bridges (a houserules violation) and two defend Genoa which gets attacked by Gaul with monotonous regularity as do the bridges. This will probably lighten up as my Spanish legions start taking the Gauls down from their rear which has been the strategy all along.

What the houserules would have me do here is to give up the bridges and either back off and let the Gauls cross to fight or go across and fight on their side. Let's look at what that pre-battle speech might sound like.

"Men, you know me. I am a true Roman of the old school. I believe in virtue, valor and that Rome is destined to rule the world. I also believe in fair play on the battlefield.

So today we are going to abandon our supremely effective U-shaped bridgehead defense and allow our barbarian foes to cross unimpeded. We will also withdraw a space to allow them to form up in good order without harassment.

I think this will provide us with more of a challenge and thus be more fun."

Sure; I can see that.

Battles are not basketball games; no element of mutual fairness presides. If you can get fifteen men on the court and somehow hold the foe to five that's what you do.

That's how I play and I'm having great fun with the mod.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Oh I see. Some of those rules seem fun and logical, but the majority looks more like things that a bored player would do to make the game heavily curved against him. I find that playing on vh/vh is hard enough. If not you can always go into the files amd raise recruitment and building costs for your faction, but this is rather tedious. So I dont really get why they are considered "rules" rather than your style of playing

It's not my style of playing but the creator of the mods style of playing, he decided to share this with us and it does give the game some extra level of difficulty.

You say you play on VH/VH but i am sure your not using the 4tpy/garrison script, tell me if i am wrong. But then again it's your game and you play it the way you like it, the house rules are just an extra nothing more nothing less.

[czePowerslave]

Oh I have been having fun with this mod for well over year now. It is no fun without house rules. HAr.

[Paladin247]

Oh I have been having fun with this mod for well over year now. It is no fun without house rules. HAr.

There you go again. Your second sentence should have read, "It is no fun for me without house rules." and that would have been accurate. You're not qualified to determine that it's no fun for anyone else to play as they wish.

[The10thLegion]

I agree with Paladin247.

[Raglan]

hey my brother, long time no see.

[lt1956]

Lets play nice, I made the mod for all to enjoy. Many people who played SPQR didnt do so by house rules. I only listed those so people can play the way I designed the game. Sometimes the house rules can be ignored other times it messes things up. But really its up to the player, There are people that dont use the script and blitz and thats great for them. There are people that play this mod and 5 others at the same time. I only play SPQR mod, thats why I made it, and there are alot of like minded individuals that play the same way I do. House rules for me is Fun and Challenging, to others they may be a pain. I am just glad people like the mod and that I could bring some joys with all thats going on in the real world.

I have never had a rebelled Legion come back. I dont think its possible atleast when they have their leader. Overall I liked that feature in the mod, hence why I added it. I love having a legion rebel on me when I least expect it, of course it ticks me off, but it presents new challenges on how to fill the gap when that happens.

Paladin247, just because there is 300 hits doesnt mean they agree with you. lol I dont and I am won of those hits. Mainly it was the topic that I find interesting. I rather enjoy hearing stories of peoples campaigns and how they deal with them.

Lt1956

[Paladin247]

lt1956,
And what a great mod it is, wonderful work.

I was a career naval officer, but the Roman Army has always been one of my great interests. I have a shelf of books and that's not counting the fiction, like the Scarrow works.

It is one of the wonders of games that you can bring it to life. Something beyond dreams when I was a child.

[Paladin247]

I just lost my sixth AI legate in like six GT via suicide by Celt. I know it's been discussed mucho and the SPQR fix was to equip the general with missiles. Would one possible fix be to set his default to skirmish vice stand and fight? I looked thru the files, but couldn't find a way to do this with my pedestrian skills. Anyone know of a way or is this an issue w/ the CA code that is unfixable? Seems so from what I've read here.

I realize this would have its own problems, but I think it would likely be better. As I said above, it's not just losing the legate which is aggravating, but then his legion can panic as a result which is really infuriating.

I'm going to start doing what I read in another thread and remove the legate from reinforcing legions. Let the Primus Pilus take the conn. Romans did that on occasion.

[czePowerslave]

Use single legion at a time.

[Paladin247]

Nah.

[lt1956]

Use a generic General recruited that is NEW for the extra legion, then if you dies no big deal. But you can do either way, I just recommend generals for all armies as the Game code for SPQR works better that way than without Generals or Legates