Austrians & Germans

[Armenum]

This discussion is regarding if Austrians are Germans, and thus Austrians don't constitute a separate ethnic group. We should also remember the many other cases where this argument of ethnicity has been applied:

Moldovans - Romanians
Azeris - Turks
Flemish - Dutch
Tajiks - Persians
Macedonians - Bulgarians
Greek Cypriots - Greeks
etc...

-------------
My revised view, based on a different look on "ethnicity" and "nationality":


Austrians and Germans are part of the same family (especially Southern Germans and Austrians), though they have just been historically/politically split for ages. So, politically they are obviously not the same (hence Austrians referring to themselves as Austrians), but ethnically they are the same just like Bavarians and Berliners are Germans.

The differences between Austrians and Germans is more at a regional level (e.g. difference between North German and South German) than at a supranational level (e.g. French vs. Germans).

[MathiasOfAthens]

Simple way is to just remember how the german state was formed. Austrian is German but German is a term for the people who live in Germania. So its a sheer chance that Bismark didnt include Austria within his German Empire. Its a sheer chance that Bohemia was included. Consider that there could be an independent Saxony, Bohemia, or any number of other German States.

[konny]

1) Identity: Austrians identify themselves as Austrians, not Germans (in fact calling an Austrian German, they will take great offense)

Bavarians identify themselves as Bavarians first too, does it follow they are no Germans?

2) Common history: don't need to explain this

Oh, please do! Would be interesting to learn how some 90% of Austrian history can be told without having it as a part of Germany.

3) Common religion: Most are Roman Catholic, Germans are are mostly Lutheran

In which parallel universe? Germany has 30,7% Catholics and 30,2% Lutherans.

4) Common language: Austrians speak German however Austrian German is a dialect understood by many Austrians. Germans have hard time understanding this dialect which I've personally seen with my own eyes

Ever been to Germany? Obviously not, otherwise you would know that each German region has a distincive dialect that speakers of another German region cannot understand.

6) Genetics: Austrians are close to South Germans, yes, but are not the exactly the same.

Austrians are more closer to southern Germans than those to northern Germans.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Bet it would surprise him to know the Franks are also German.

[Dr. Croccer]

Bet it would surprise him to know the Franks are also German.

More Dutch than German, actually.

[Armenum]

-Firstly, take a look at those links that show the genetic. Genetics is a very reliable marker. Austrians have had more mixture with neighboring Hungarians, Slavic people, at to lesser extent Northern Italians. Germans have had much less of this mixture.

-Second, all I'm saying is that Austrians are a Germanic ethnic group rather than Austrians just being Germans. This statement is agreeable and accepted by almost all of world.

-I've been to Austria many times (I was born there!) and I know for fact Austrians view themselves as Austrians and not as Germans. In Germany, a Bavarian view himself as Bavarian but also either at same time or secondly German; there is difference. Self-identity is key.

-Viennese dialect is spoken in Vienna, but that is not the Austrian dialect!

-Remember, during WWII Hitler had to organize a coup in order to get the government to cooperate. There was a Nazi party in Austria and Hitler wanted to put them in power, and he exterminated the opposition in the process. There was small civil war in streets of Vienna in process. Thus, when Hitler entered Austria he met no resistance. Austrian people were at the same time happy no war had happened but also were happy to be part of Nazi Germany which was a quickly growing power.

-Culture I haven't also touched upon. Austrian culture is similar to Bavarian, but it also has many of its unique cultural elements that is obtained in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

[konny]

-Firstly, take a look at those links that show the genetic. Genetics is a very reliable marker. Austrians have had more mixture with neighboring Hungarians, Slavic people, at to lesser extent Northern Italians. Germans have had much less of this mixture.

What is not the result of Austria being that part of Germany which is the closest to the habitats of said people, but of the Austrians being a distincitve race?

-Second, all I'm saying is that Austrians are a Germanic ethnic group rather than Austrians just being Germans. This statement is agreeable and accepted by almost all of world.

Oh yes, the Hesses are a "Germanic group" too, but that does not make them less German.

-I've been to Austria many times (I was born there!) and I know for fact Austrians view themselves as Austrians and not as Germans. In Germany, a Bavarian view himself as Bavarian but also either at same time or secondly German; there is difference. Self-identity is key.

Rather self-fooling: After 1945 the Austrians came up with the idea that they are somehow no Germans in order to make them "unguilty" with the 3. Reich. That is, of course, utter nonsense.

-Viennese dialect is spoken in Vienna, but that is not the Austrian dialect!

Oh yes, and Kölsch is spoken in Cologne but that is not the dialect of all Northrhine-Westphalia. German, and not a language called "Austrian" is the official standard language in Austria.

-Remember, during WWII Hitler had to organize a coup in order to get the government to cooperate. There was a Nazi party in Austria and Hitler wanted to put them in power, and he exterminated the opposition in the process. There was small civil war in streets of Vienna in process. Thus, when Hitler entered Austria he met no resistance. Austrian people were at the same time happy no war had happened but also were happy to be part of Nazi Germany which was a quickly growing power.

Ah I see, but the Austrian Hitler had to "organize a group" in order to gain power in Germany too.

-Culture I haven't also touched upon. Austrian culture is similar to Bavarian, but it also has many of its unique cultural elements that is obtained in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

And this "Austrian culture" has magically fallen from the skies in 1866?

[Armenum]

Konny, what are you trying to prove in the end, that Austrians = Germans. That may have been more debatable 100 years ago, but now it's different. People have changed, already generations of Austrians have been born which view themselves as Austrians. Being a separate empire/nation from Germany for a large portion of history has divided both groups. Austrians being in same empire of people in East Europe/Balkans while Germans keeping a Prussian Empire in the North also divided both.

The thing I ask is that if you really believe that Austrians = Germans, that you also admit that all those other ethnicities equals each other that I've stated. And thus by admitting that you've lumped all ethnicies into very broad categories which in my opinion is wrong because it takes away the uniqueness of many of these groups.

[eisenkopf]

-Firstly, take a look at those links that show the genetic. Genetics is a very reliable marker. Austrians have had more mixture with neighboring Hungarians, Slavic people, at to lesser extent Northern Italians. Germans have had much less of this mixture.

I don't agree that the genotype is reliable marker for distinguishing between people. Nurture is stronger than nature here.

-Second, all I'm saying is that Austrians are a Germanic ethnic group rather than Austrians just being Germans. This statement is agreeable and accepted by almost all of world.

But are there "zee Germans"? If Austrians are a Germanic ethic group, so might be Bavarians or Frisians or Saxons. Yet according to you they are all "just Germans". So either noone is "just German", or the Austrians are as well.

-I've been to Austria many times (I was born there!) and I know for fact Austrians view themselves as Austrians and not as Germans. In Germany, a Bavarian view himself as Bavarian but also either at same time or secondly German; there is difference. Self-identity is key.

I don't doubt that. However, I have argued that this is a very recent development.

-Viennese dialect is spoken in Vienna, but that is not the Austrian dialect!

No, because there is no Austrian dialect.

-Remember, during WWII Hitler had to organize a coup in order to get the government to cooperate. There was a Nazi party in Austria and Hitler wanted to put them in power, and he exterminated the opposition in the process. There was small civil war in streets of Vienna in process. Thus, when Hitler entered Austria he met no resistance. Austrian people were at the same time happy no war had happened but also were happy to be part of Nazi Germany which was a quickly growing power.

The civil war you are referring to was the preemptive looting and persecution of Jews. It was not against the Germans, but against another distinct ethnic group. It depends on what you call a coup, but the (forced) demission of the Austrian chancellor does not fit well into my definition of it. All the since not only the Nazi party wanted the Anschluss, but the most of the Social Democrats as well! I really encourage you to read more on the subject.

-Culture I haven't also touched upon. Austrian culture is similar to Bavarian, but it also has many of its unique cultural elements that is obtained in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

I cannot really comment on this, except that it seems to be a very vague argument to me.

[Armenum]

I don't agree that the genotype is reliable marker for distinguishing between people. Nurture is stronger than nature here.

actually it is. It shows with what other ethnic groups a given ethnic group has had more contact with and thus more association/influence. According to these genetic markers it proves Austrians had a lot of contact with non Germans which has set them apart.

But are there "zee Germans"? If Austrians are a Germanic ethic group, so might be Bavarians or Frisians or Saxons. Yet according to you they are all "just Germans". So either noone is "just German", or the Austrians are as well.

I would argue that many of those states have been closer to "Germany" than Austria throughout history. They've had their independence (very weak however) but have also quickly unified with Prussia/ German states. In all, Austria has had more of independence throughout history than those states. I believe a distinction is to be made between South Germans and North Germans, but not in every single state.

I don't doubt that. However, I have argued that this is a very recent development.

It's not recent.

No, because there is no Austrian dialect.

Look I know this better than you. Other day we had Austrian friends over and also German friends. Germans friends (from Germany) were agreeing Austrian German is hard to understand for them.

Check this out: http://german.about.com/library/bldialect_aus01.htm
http://userweb.port.ac.uk/~joyce1/dialects/oboester.html

I cannot really comment on this, except that it seems to be a very vague argument to me.

Why can't you comment. Culture is very important in defining ethnic group. Austrian culture has similarities to German but has distinct differences (e.g. Hungarian influences).

[eisenkopf]

This question came up in a previous thread; I just want to restate my post as a new thread.

Many members asserted that Austrians = Germans; basically an Austrian is really a German, the only difference being the name. To which I disagree.

If one asserts that, then they must agree to these identities too:

Flemish = Dutch
Swiss (German) = German
Belarussian = Russian
Azeri = Turk
Croatian = Serb
Macedonian = Bulgarian
Irish = British

And the list goes on.

I think many of these analogies are a bit strained, but I will accept them for the sake of argument at the moment.

Here is a definition of an ethnic group: "An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.[1][2] This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness."

The definition of an ethnic group is necessarily vague and depending on perspective. Probably a Bavarian sees himself as a Bavarian first and foremost, yet who else would disagree that he is a German?

1) Identity: Austrians identify themselves as Austrians, not Germans (in fact calling an Austrian German, they will take great offense)
2) Common history: don't need to explain this
3) Common religion: Most are Roman Catholic, Germans are are mostly Lutheran
4) Common language: Austrians speak German however Austrian German is a dialect understood by many Austrians. Germans have hard time understanding this dialect which I've personally seen with my own eyes
5) Shared territory: self-explantory
6) Genetics: Austrians are close to South Germans, yes, but are not the exactly the same. Austrians are a Germanic ethnic group just like the Swiss, Dutch, English, etc.

1) This has not always been so. In the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the German-speaking population identified themselves mostly as... German! And there was a huge movement pro-Anschluss in the 30s, and not only right-wing, but also left-wing (check for example "Hitler's Empire" by Mark Manzower on this, he provides many references to specific resources).

2) In fact, Austria and Germany share a very close history most of the time, from the HRRE to the creation of the "small German solution" in 1871.

3) Wrong. There are many Catholics in Germany.

4) I won't understand a Bavarian, yet I understood Viennese. Your point is?

5) What's self-explanatory about this?

6) Sources? I highly doubt the significance of genetics in this matter.

Check this out:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25106

Bottom line is, Austrians are a Germanic ethnic group, but it is wrong to just say Austrian = German.

I don't get your bottom line.

Fact is that an Austrian national identity is the result of post-WW2 order. The Anschluss 1938 was greeted with enthusiasm by many Austrians, because they themselves felt as Germans.

PS argh, Konny beat me to it in every respect...

[Helm]

"Irish = British"

Well they are, Ok so some of them rebelled during WW1.

[Heavy Weapons Guy]

Germans=Austrians

[SonOfOdin]

Germans=Austrians

No, Austrians = Germans

Germans refers to all people who are culturally German(like Germans living in Czechoslovakia(I still refer to it that way yes), Austria, Poland, Netherlands etc)
Austria refers to the people who are/were born in Austria politically, not ethnically
Most Austrians are actually German in culture, yet are politically Austrian by law and stuff...

Besides I don't think most Austrians would mind if Germany would annex them since Germany is well off at the moment

[MathiasOfAthens]

Irish would be closer to the native British, excluding the anglo saxons who came over during the 6th century.

And Croccer whats the difference between Dutch German and German German, besides language. If you go back long enough they are almost the same people. Like the Danish and Scandinavians are also from the Germanic Branch.

[Armenum]

Irish would be closer to the native British, excluding the anglo saxons who came over during the 6th century.

And Croccer whats the difference between Dutch German and German German, besides language. If you go back long enough they are almost the same people. Like the Danish and Scandinavians are also from the Germanic Branch.

If you go back far enough everybody came from the same group. So the question is where do you draw the line?

People believing the argument have to also agree to:
Pakistani = Indian
Swedish = Norwegian = Danish
Estonian = Latvian = Lithuanian

[MathiasOfAthens]

If you go back far enough everybody came from the same group. So the question is where do you draw the line?

People believing the argument have to also agree to:
Pakistani = Indian
Swedish = Norwegian = Danish
Estonian = Latvian = Lithuanian

Well Pakistan was cut out of British India because the majority was muslim. Thats not to say everyone in Pakistan is the same ethnic group. Pastuns in the north deserve their own homeland and being lump together with the Pakistanis doesn't make this better.

Swedes, Norse, and the Danes are all the same people. Danes came from the Skane region of Southern Sweden who displaced the Native Angles, Jutes, and Saxons of Denmark.
Id agree with Estonian=Latvian=Lithuanian as well, but they too have many differences today.

[removeduser_052420]

Pastuns in the north deserve their own homeland and being lump together with the Pakistanis doesn't make this better.

Why do you think this?

[Armenum]

Why do you think this?

What would you say if someone said Pakistanis = Indians?

[uzi716]

If you go back far enough everybody came from the same group. So the question is where do you draw the line?

People believing the argument have to also agree to:
Pakistani = Indian
Swedish = Norwegian = Danish
Estonian = Latvian = Lithuanian

You had a really solid argument until that. Estonian is more related to Finnish than anything else. I wouldn't exactly say Norwegian is that close with Danish and Swedish. But it s related nonetheless, Swedish and Danish are more closely related