Executing 'Evil' prisoners

[el Cid]

When I win a battle from OotMM I usually have loads of prisoners, and, like a true Elf would do...

I kill them, but the stupid thing is that it adds dread to my generals, which is not 'Elf-like'.

To get to the point....

Why do your generals get more dread when they execute orcs, which would be considered a good thing to do?

Is it possible to make it so that when you execute evil prisoners chivalry gets added or is this hardcoded?

[Jean=A=Luc]

like a true Elf would do...

Think again:

Even the orcs, who appear utterly evil and "must be fought with the utmost severity", Tolkien writes in one of his notebooks, "must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost".

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pag...-caldecott.htm

[el Cid]

Think again:
http://www.christendom-awake.org/pag...-caldecott.htm

Yes, but the captives don't beg for mercy, instead they run away and when they are captured they start begging.

Tnx for the submod MDT, but is this compatible with 1.4?

And I don't want to gain chivalry by executing them, just no change in reputation or chivalry.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Yes, but the captives don't beg for mercy, instead they run away and when they are captured they start begging.

I don't understand. Of course they run and you don't expect them to start begging at the beginning of a battle, do you? It's a typical prisoner of war situation -> they fight, they lose, they run, they're captured.

[Vifarc]

Yes, but the captives don't beg for mercy, instead they run away and when they are captured they start begging.

Oh? They are captives before being captured?

[Twist of Cain]

This is probably coming up as more of an issue now that city growth issues have catapulted the importance of chivalry to much higher levels.

Think again:

I've seen that, and it appears a bit inconsistent as Tolkien states this, but as a rule doesn't describe it happening. As we know, absence of information inspires misleading beliefs...

[el Cid]

I've seen that, and it appears a bit inconsistent as Tolkien states this, but as a rule doesn't describe it happening. As we know, absence of information inspires misleading beliefs...

And I thought that it was said in the books that the Galadhrim chased the orcs down when they tried to enter Lórien and killed them all.

Though I could be wrong here.

@JAL

What I mean is that if you don't want to fight anymore, you should surrender, not run away.

[Raiven]

I can imagine chivalrous Witch King executing tons of innocent elves

[Baron Samedi]

Is it possible to make it so that when you execute evil prisoners chivalry gets added or is this hardcoded?

Yes it's possible via traits. I am not an expert at this, but you might try the following:open export_descr_character_traits.txt with notepad, located in ...\Medieval II Total War\mods\Third_Age\data (make a back-up just in case)
I believe the following trigger is responsible for the increase in dread after executing the prisoners:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trigger prisoners_captor2
    WhenToTest GeneralPrisonersRansomedCaptor
    Condition RansomType execute
          and NumCapturedSoldiers > 80
    Affects CaptorDread  1  Chance  100

Change it to:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trigger prisoners_captor2
    WhenToTest GeneralPrisonersRansomedCaptor
    Condition RansomType execute
          and NumCapturedSoldiers > 80
    Affects CaptorChivalry  1  Chance  100

So instead of getting dread, the general gets now chivalry when executing more than 80 captured soldiers.

[traxx91]

But the problem is that the general gets + chivalry now too when he executs 'good' guys like Men or Dwarfs.

[Dea Paladin]

But the problem is that the general gets + chivalry now too when he executs 'good' guys like Men or Dwarfs.

He shouldnt be at war with them

[Tropical Bob]

Would it be possible to add a condition for faction types to that?

That way, you could make it dread for executing 'good' Men and Dwarves, and chivalry for executing 'evil' Men and Orcs.

[Vifarc]

As Silvan, I almost never kill the prisonners.
I do sometimes it when I'm angry as my general has been killed AND I captured an ennemy general (hey I'm a real human player!).
Then I agree when I would ingame become dread for this.

Jean=A=Luc could as usually close the topic at his post:
"Irrelevant question, CLOSED!"

[Baron Samedi]

Would it be possible to add a condition for faction types to that?

That way, you could make it dread for executing 'good' Men and Dwarves, and chivalry for executing 'evil' Men and Orcs.

Probably yes. You could add the ''ExcludeCultures'' condition in the ''CaptorChivalry'' trait as is done for other traits like: drink, arse, girls, perverted ()

[MDT]

There was a submod you could be interested in: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hlight=be+evil

[Vifarc]

I wish there would be an option in killing only generals OR troop prisonners.

[beginattackrun]

Didn't you guys see Jean's reference?

Even the orcs, who appear utterly evil and "must be fought with the utmost severity", Tolkien writes in one of his notebooks, "must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost".

However, there is at least one alternative. According to my limited LotR knowledge, Tolkien was originally unsure of whether or not orcs had a life of their own. This is the Wikipedia description.

Orc Origins are first described in The Tale of Tinúviel as "foul broodlings of Melko (Melkor) [sic] who fared abroad doing his evil work". In The Fall of Gondolin Tolkien wrote that "all that race were bred by Melko (Melkor) of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal, and to nothing were they more fain than to aid in the basest of the purposes of Melko."
In The Silmarillion, Tolkien conceived Orcs to be Elves, enslaved by Morgoth, broken and twisted into his evil soldiers. Other versions (including notes made both early and late in Tolkien's life) have Orcs as 'parodies' or false-creations of Morgoth's that are animated solely by his evil will (or, perhaps, by his own essence diffused into each), and made intentionally to mock or spite Eru Ilúvatar's creations — the Eldar and Edain.
When writing The Hobbit, Tolkien carried over the concept of the "orc" that he had developed in writing early versions of The Silmarillion, just as he carried over references to Elves, Gondolin, and other elements of the Silmarillion.

So I would say you should first nail down your interpretation of Tolkien's orcs. If they are corrupted versions of elves/humans/etc., then I believe Jean's reference would hold up, meaning the generation of chivalry from executing orcs would be illogical (unless your view of chivalry in Total War games is that it is based on social perception and not necessarily reality). Still, in this situation I think that the rate of dread-gain for orc-execution should be mitigated so that the execution of non-orcs does not produce equal dread.

On the other hand, if you believe Tolkien meant them to be false creations of Melkor, then they possess no shred of real life, and the execution of a million of them would be of less moral consequence than swatting a single fly (as even flies possess life). Chivalry gain would be logical, though Jean's reference still has an application here. If the execution of orcs was still an anti-elvish principle under these conditions (debatable, as Tolkien would have perhaps removed his writing about orc execution being unacceptable once he had accepted the idea that orcs are false creations), it would make sense that an Elven general ordering the execution would still gain dread, as he would believe his actions to be immoral even though they weren't in truth.

[Darkie]

As a gondorian you should Kill all orcs. All of them, if they surrender..too bad for them, kill them. Take no one alive, purge every single orc.

[Hermes Trismegistos]

IMO dread doesn't necessarily mean that you are evil, it means that you are more feared than loved. IMO good generals should be able to gain dread, to become feared amongst Saurons servants - we have many examples of terror inflicted by our heroes on orcs in LOTR and I think the possibility for good generals to gain fear as well totally makes sense. I have more problems with chivalry for orcs...

[athanaric]

Ironically, most Orc captains I have seen in the game so far are rather chivalrous, whereas Rohan's, the Dwarves' and my own captains are known as merciless butchers, the most prominent example being Legolas and "King Dáin Lord of Terror".