KGCM 4.2 "Foxes and Lions" <COMPLETED>

[Koljan]

Rules:

1) Turns must be posted within 24 hours of the previous turn. Failure to do so multiple times will result in the player being terminated from the hotseat. I will be fairly lenient here on most occasions since it does happen to all of us, myself included, but repetitive tardiness is not acceptable and will slow down the pace of the game even more than it will be with 9 players.

2) All human v human battles must be autoresolved. You must also provide two screenshots for each battle. One showing the pre-battle statistics and odds, and one showing the autoresolved final vote. Failure to do so will result in the player having to play their turn again and providing new screenshots.

3) No reloading saves if you don't like the result. There is no way to enforce this. I trust all of you guys to stick to the honor code on this one. Any player suspected of reloading saves will be terminated as well.

4 ) No Crusades / Jihads first 10 turns - And No abusing Jihads and crusades to gain movement points. No attacking settlements if they are not Crusade / Jihad - related using Crusade / Jihad stacks.

5) No Papal diplomacy bar trade rights - And No Other AI Diplomatic extortion or AI exploitation of any kind. Any AI.

6) No avoiding Garrison script - No attacking an AI army thats next to a castle to prevent garrison script from spawning.

rules may be added during the game if an exploit or such is to be found. it is the players responsibility to keep himself up to date with the rules.
Changes will also be published as a reply if any will take place.


In case of a player dropping out or being kicked out, we will look for a substitution within 24 hours. If we can't find one we will turn the faction over to AI control.


All in all, pretty basic stuff. I hope we can all agree to these rules.

If you have any further suggestions for rules, speak up.

Factions to Choose from:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cluster 1:
Spain - Zero
Portugal - Grislok
Moors - Slanted
France - IB

Cluster 2:
Venice
Milan - Koljan
Sicily

Cluster 3:
Byzantium - Vasilef
Egypt -
Turks - Mordrorru
HRE - Tharn

Cluster 4:
Hungary
Poland
KoJ
Antioch

Not selectable by Players:
Mongols, British Isles factions, Scandinavia Factions, Baltic factions excluding the ones listed in clusters.

CLUSTERING EXPLAINED:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In order to keep the game Player vs Player Oriented and in order to keep a reasonable distance between players (not take to turn 20 to start fighting each other),

I proudly Introduce to you the Cluster(-) system.
The Cluster system works in a very simple manner. A Nation from a Cluster cannot be selected by a player if the previous cluster still contains unselected factions.

For example: Based on the clustering above, a player cannot choose Milan unless France, Moors, Spain and Portugal have been already selected by players.

Admins note:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"Foxes and Lions" strives to achieve a new level of speed and length to KGCM hotseating, trying to reach gunpowder event, at least.
Leaving a hotseat mid-way is a prolematic thing, just like joining one in progress.
A bug exists, that prevents smooth transition of factions to and from AI / Player control involving disbalance towards other players. This means that if youa re In, you are in all the way. We are a comitted bunch of people, and we expect a certain degree of the same attribute in new players that wish to become a part of our little micro-community (KGCM hotseater club).

Also, screenshots and AARing is very much encouraged.

When the game is concluded, I hope to make a vid which summarizes the "rewritten history of the world", History channel style. Any narrator voices out there? Mine is too amusing for history channel impersenation. needs to be serious-like. :p

Also, I strongly encourage you to not delete any IC PMs you send and recieve so that at endgame some of them could be also included in this summary.

IF YOU ARE NEW TO HOTSEATING:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This game was not meant for multiplayer campaign.
It is with the grace of the devs (or some grace, at least) and hard work by the modding community that this thing can happen.
Thus, one must realize that enjoyment of this game in multiplayer hotseating largely depends on enjoying the company and playing like a gentleman.
Above all else, not being a dick and going with the flow.
This game isn't about winning, it's about having fun as long as you are playing - for better or worse.

Turn 5

Turn 10

Turn 15

Turn 20

Turn 25

Turn 30

Turn 35

Turn 40

Turn 45

Turn 50

Turn 55

Turn 60

Turn 65

Turn 70

Turn 75

Turn 80

Turn 83

[Mordrorru]

Thumbs down on the cluster system.

[Koljan]

Your thumb down has been weight, measured, and found to be based on...

What, exactly?

If your gonna say No, either say Why not or just don't play.

[Mordrorru]

Well I don't like being forced to choose between Spain, Portugal, Moors or France. I'm not big on those factions for one. Kinda had my heart set on Russia or the Teutonic Order to be honest. (Which you've removed completely, actually.)

Also, the more people who join, the more their selection will be limited. The third person can only choose between two factions, and the fourth person is forced to choose one. (Portugal, probably.)

Plus you've cut out the British Isles factions, Scandinavian Factions, and Baltic factions completely, which is no fun.

[Koljan]

And I shall explain why.
The northern part of the map is cut out because a Scotland Player would have next to zero intercation with players.
Based on our experiences with KGCM and hotseating, having too big of a spread is plain boring.
Since we already have a British Isles campaign running, and one thats stretched across Europe.
And we did sort of grind the Baltic theme already to the most part.
So, the most unplayed area is the south, thus this game is here to supply the demand for more KGCM epic hotseating.

About the Clustering design:
While you are correct in saying that the third player is limited to two choices, no one said you have to be player #3. Nor #4 or #5 for that matter.
Also, no one said you cant talk to whoever chose a faction more to your liking and ask him to switch.
The alternative to clustered selection (which slowly extends areas of the map to be played at is defining pre-set area and hope you get enough players to fill all the gaps.
Even then there has to be some wise guy that takes something distant and unrelated, hoping to triumph over AI and create a mighty empire by the time the rest are done killing each other.

You got better suggestions? ideas? I'm all ears.
I didnt put more than 10 minutes of thought into this system and i'm not saying it's the ultimate thing to do.
I'm saying lets give it a shot. I am very open to suggestions and ideas on improvements or changes. It's not MY games, it's everyones.
All players are equal.
As Admin though, I'm alittle more equal.

[Mordrorru]

While you are correct in saying that the third player is limited to two choices, no one said you have to be player #3. Nor #4 or #5 for that matter.

Won't that just lead to nobody wanting to take the #3 or #4 spot, and everyone waiting around for someone else to take it?

[Koljan]

except for the guys that actually want to play the remaining factions, or at the worst case scenario, only willing to.
I am In no rush to start this asap and To be honest i would rather take the time with registration and wait for PWF's return
Also, the more time we take to sort out before we start, the more we will enjoy a quality campaign.

[Mordrorru]

Who'd pick Portugal if they didn't have to?

And is that really what you want? Players reluctantly choosing a faction due to artificial constraints?

One of the reasons that you're at Turn 24 in the KGCM Epic Hotseat and no major war has broken out between players is because you guys are too lenient with the AI.

I joined the game to find that the Welsh human player had made an Alliance with AI England. I was shocked to find that Norway still existed in Scandinavia with a human Denmark player just south. In fact, he too has an alliance with him!

Same thing with Poland. Incontinenta Buttox has an alliance with AI Hungary. And it's turn 24 and a Turkish human player hasn't wiped out the Byzantines?

Meanwhile, I've crushed almost all my neighbors in 4 measly little turns. (Though the distances are obviously slightly smaller and I've gotten excommunicated for my efforts.)

Just sayin'.

[Grislok]

Is this one any different as far as mods etc. or same as what we have been doing?

[Slanted]

I am for the clustering but I think a vote should be done on which cluster. Not everyone likes the Iberian Peninsula, me being one of them.

[Koljan]

Who'd pick Portugal if they didn't have to?

from Moors, Spain, France and Portugal, I actually would take Portugal.
In fact, i was upset that i couldnt pick first and was afraid someone would nab it before me.

And is that really what you want? Players reluctantly choosing a faction due to artificial constraints?

No, but the average mature player wouldnt mind "taking one for the team". Or so I'd like to think. Our shared objective here is to have an interesting and fun campaign, not exercise our might against an AI that has no chance against us.

One of the reasons that you're at Turn 24 in the KGCM Epic Hotseat and no major war has broken out between players is because you guys are too lenient with the AI.

Because the alternative is systematic AI rape a' la zerosilvers' HRE vs France.

I joined the game to find that the Welsh human player had made an Alliance with AI England. I was shocked to find that Norway still existed in Scandinavia with a human Denmark player just south. In fact, he too has an alliance with him!

It's Denmarks first hotseat.
Also, May i remind you that you joined the game after having the AI bonus income and having the AI already trained troops for you.
Infact, probably more troops that a human player ever could recruit and upkeep.

Same thing with Poland. Incontinenta Buttox has an alliance with AI Hungary. And it's turn 24 and a Turkish human player hasn't wiped out the Byzantines?

And where exactly does it say that by turn 24 this and this and that should happen?
If i'm not wrong, Epic is your first KGCM hotseat. with all due respect, what do you really know about what "should" or should not have happend by turn 24?
Infact so far it has progressed about the same rate as the rprevious time i played Sicily to turn 24.

Meanwhile, I've crushed almost all my neighbors in 4 measly little turns. (Though the distances are obviously slightly smaller and I've gotten excommunicated for my efforts.)

Yes, you are no doubt mighty and powerful. Atleast when it comes to Comp-Stomping, with pre-made armies and an over pumped wallet no less.

I suggest you read a couple of the failed hotseat threads.
In one of them, you will find a very similar debate though on a different subject, between myself and a player named Kaizer Merlox. I suggest you read it to improve your understanding of the spirit of this hotseat... "type", which happens to be somewhat opposed to uber blitzing and comp stomping and more focused on politics, diplomacy, contraversy, cloak and dagger, etc.
Conquest and Land is but one aspect of this wonderful game and when focused too much on, the others tend to fade away.

I mean,
If you want to play a faction isolated fromt he rest of the players and fighting NPC factions, why even bother hotseat? how is single player not satisfying that need as a gamer?
I seriously don't get it.

[Koljan]

Slanted - If we want to do that, we need to rebuild the figure of the clusters themselves. Cluster #1 should always be the focus area. Clusters 2 and 3 and sort of lairs added onto that core.
4 and 5 extend the game further from the core etc.
The point is, this cluster figure is based on the iberia as you have correctly pointed out.
However, if the core was to be moved to central europe for example, we'd add up in another "Epic" hotseat.
The Idea is to avoid recently used and over used themes.
personally i dont mind any theme, even one already playing or recently played.
My goal is to provide a setting most players are most likely to enjoy the most.
The one thing im not willing to center the game on are holy lands. The reason being, they are simply too far and too detached from the rest.
A game revolving Byzantium would be very interesting though, as long as HRE isnt Player-manned.

[THARN]

I was just going to reply to Mord's bltzkrieg tacics but you already have Koljan-
some people just have that quick win mentality to gaming- I hope it doesn't end up ruining what we already spent months playing.

As for the 'who will select Portugal'? of course they should not be able to survive- but - some people enjoy the challenge of 'just surviving' and you cant do it by military force as Portugal vs Humans.. you need tact and guile and diplomacy...

[Slanted]

Hmmm I suppose you are right Koljan. Well I enjoy being the one who is constantly targeted and I really like the Muslim factions I will choose the Moors. I just have one question, I understand that attacking an AI faction out of focus would be outlawed, say France attacking the HRE or England, but what if Sicily were to declare war on me? Would I be able to retaliate and take some of their lands?

[Koljan]

I wouldn't say outlawed exactly.
The Moors specifically have a large variety of targets, but subsequently many potential enemies.
Since Italy is in Cluster 2, it's safe to say that Sicily will be taken by a player.
Thus the only real AI target you are likely to have would be from further clusters - like egypt, for example.
What i really would like to see is someone finally going for an early new world expedition

nevermind though, I see your point, some players aren't going to have AI to rape and some will.
To this the simple answer is...
well, suppose france decides to go for HRE...
I think Venice and Milan would have something to say about that. Don't you?
Also, the Clusters arent set in stone, they can be changed and moved around in accordance to roster capacity and status at a given time, should the consensus be it will indeed improve the game.

I think the main thing we need to do is to let go alittle bit of the whole exco / catholic / Muslim camping thing and just pay less attention to religion.
I'd really hate to see Moors being the only muslim faction and the catholics doing the old "catholic brotherhood" thing.
Besides, I trust our fellow players to not go overkill on you, and send jsut enough soldiers to only possibly win.

Lots of things we never even implemented into games, like, for example, muslims allying with certain selfish interest hunting catholics (or maybe we jsut dont know about it ^^)
Or maybe, Muslim vs Muslim warfare?
What I'm trying to say here is that the options are limitless.
We just need to use our imagination

[Mordrorru]

It's kinda long:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

from Moors, Spain, France and Portugal, I actually would take Portugal.
In fact, i was upset that i couldnt pick first and was afraid someone would nab it before me.

I knew someone would say that.

No, but the average mature player wouldnt mind "taking one for the team". Or so I'd like to think. Our shared objective here is to have an interesting and fun campaign, not exercise our might against an AI that has no chance against us.

But a campaign may be less fun and interesting if you can't play the faction you have more fun with.

And the alternative to packing us like sardines is not necessarily just another Human vs AI campaign.

Because the alternative is systematic AI rape a' la zerosilvers' HRE vs France.

That's a bad thing? AI rapes lead to conflict between nations!

Example: You know that X nation is going to grow too powerful if allowed to expand too easily, so you declare war.

It's Denmarks first hotseat.
Also, May i remind you that you joined the game after having the AI bonus income and having the AI already trained troops for you.
Infact, probably more troops that a human player ever could recruit and upkeep.

May I remind you that I can train troops just as well as the AI, and that it would certainly not take me 24 turns to defeat my neighbors.

Also, I had a grand total of 4 stacks when I first joined on Turn 21, and enough money that even without an extra 17k per turn, I could afford them all and still make a several thousand florins per-turn profit.

And where exactly does it say that by turn 24 this and this and that should happen?
If i'm not wrong, Epic is your first KGCM hotseat. with all due respect, what do you really know about what "should" or should not have happend by turn 24?
Infact so far it has progressed about the same rate as the rprevious time i played Sicily to turn 24.

Well you complained that humans don't interact with each other enough if they are spread out on the map, and that therefore you need to pack them together if you want that experience.

But I'm saying that's partly because you don't annex AI nations.

Yes, you are no doubt mighty and powerful. Atleast when it comes to Comp-Stomping, with pre-made armies and an over pumped wallet no less.

May I (again) remind you that I can train troops just as well as the AI, and that it would certainly not take me 24 turns to defeat my neighbors, and that I had a grand total of 4 stacks when I first joined on Turn 21, and enough money that even without an extra 17k per turn, I could afford them all and still make a several thousand florins per-turn profit.

I suggest you read a couple of the failed hotseat threads.
In one of them, you will find a very similar debate though on a different subject, between myself and a player named Kaizer Merlox. I suggest you read it to improve your understanding of the spirit of this hotseat... "type", which happens to be somewhat opposed to uber blitzing and comp stomping and more focused on politics, diplomacy, contraversy, cloak and dagger, etc.
Conquest and Land is but one aspect of this wonderful game and when focused too much on, the others tend to fade away.

I can understand that.

I mean,
If you want to play a faction isolated fromt he rest of the players and fighting NPC factions, why even bother hotseat? how is single player not satisfying that need as a gamer?
I seriously don't get it.

You are only isolated if you choose to stay isolated and nobody conquers their AI neighbors.

And really, in the Epic hotseat you've got HRE, Milan, Sicily, Denmark and Poland. Clearly human players sharing borders =/= conflict.

And I'm not saying I won't join this campaign. I love hotseats. I'm just not a fan of this system is all.

[Ak1980]

@Koljan
As long as i'm not the only muslim faction, i'll pick Turk!


@Mordrorru
Comparing england situation, strongest richest faction in british isle with denmark is kind of funny. Try taking 2 norway script garrison city, while you have to maintain defend for your mainland possesion. I learn my lesson by reading what happen at other hotseat.

[Mordrorru]

@Koljan
As long as i'm not the only muslim faction, i'll pick Turk!

I thought you're not allowed to pick them until people've picked Spain, Portugal, Moors, France, Venice, Milan and Sicily?

[Soul Firez]

No one wants to play Heroes hordes and beyond "grumble grumble" just adding in daves exerience bonus for AI troops "grumble" would greatly cut AI rapping "grumble" 96 people have downloaded only 1 person having problems which i have now discovered why has a ancient single core pc that struggles to play vanillia 'grumble" latest XBAI which has been released no where else yet at all " grumble ".

LOL just joking gents hope you get a good game going here was going to once i did these final changes open a thread to do a hotseat using it but seeing you will now have three KGCM hotseats running will not be enough interest time for such ah well i can concentrate on just getting 31 factions in game then ( i will as always keep my eyes on your hotseats gents) may the force be with you all

[Ak1980]

Positive thinking! Sooner or later Spain, Portugal, Moors, France, Venice, Milan and Sicily will be fill. I reserve my spot for Turk in that case