CA finished with Empire?

[Huberto]

As posted CA spokesman Keiran Brigden over on the NTW forum:

To try and take some of the criticism / comments / criticism in order and hopefully shed a little light.

Battle AI - We've improved the battle AI for Napoleon. Improvements include committing to melee when more appropriate, using height terrain to better advantage. More committed behaviour, multi tasking on plans and improved siege behavior. Will it be the perfect battle AI? No it will not. AI, like every aspect of development is an iterative process. It will be an AI capable of offering a level of challenge to all players. We recognize our top level players will really only find ultimate tactical satisfaction fighting against other people, which is what some of the new multiplayer game modes are for, particularly drop-in battles. Empire's BAI is a difficult beast. Some users experience certain behaviour where others do not. For example, I have not encountered the melee bug since patch 1.5. This is not to say it doesn't still exist for some, but the majority reporting of this problem is gone.

Modding Empire - Empire had some problems on release, a fact of which we are all aware. As with any software, there are still some remaining issues now. Our focus on release and immediately afterward was not on providing tools for the community but on stability and performance patching. We chose that avenue for maximum benefit for the maximum number of our players. Empire is a moddable game, this is proven by the fact that mods exist for it. We appreciate some people saying it could be more moddable. Of course the ultimate evolution of this is open source software, something CA does not currently do or intend to pursue. We're always looking at how we can make our games more 'mod friendly' as we know this adds an incredible amount of value to TW games. So it's a balancing act, one we continue to evaluate. We can put development time into mod tools or into game polish, and given that we want Napoleon to be our most polished TW to date, our effort is going into that. Again, its a balance and one where we have to chose where to commit resource.

Console games - We have a fully fledged console team here at CA, it is a seperate entity to the TW team, although naturally the two interact. We are staffed to work on two formats simultaneously. So please do not be concerned about us moving fully to console or abandoning TW. This is not our plan and never has been. Also, as a point of note, the UK studio did not make Stormrise.

Communication - We genuinely try our best to communicate to our fans as often as possible and to address the important issues where we can. As you can imagine we are incredibly busy, communication is important and we don't take it lightly. Hence me being here. It is not lost on me or anyone else that players pay our wages.

You guys lie and I'll hate you no matter what - Two points on this one. We know how much hype and excitement there was around Empire, and we know that many people initially felt let down when they had technical issues. We are gamers too. We love games and we play them, when we get excited about something and it doesn't meet our expectations its disappointing. For some of you, this was the end and you'll abandon the franchise as a result. For those that do this, we're sorry we lost you.
What I'd ask is that we are judged by our actions.
We patched Empire six times in almost as many months including hotfixes. We continued to support it both technically, and thematically with unit packs and an extra campaign. This wasn't merciless profiteering, it was an attempt to expand the universe and offer more value. We then ran the Multi Player Beta as promised. With all that said, you cannot buy fan loyalty, you earn it, and we know that. I hope for those of you that have decided you're unsure, we can earn it back. Certainly that's the focus with Napoleon.

Fan 'art' of me - Is printed and put on my desk. Your effort is not wasted.

Kind regards,
Kieran

Looks like no mod tools or patching for Empire.

[Humble Warrior]

Originally Posted by TW Rehab
To try and take some of the criticism / comments / criticism in order and hopefully shed a little light.

Battle AI - We've improved the battle AI for Napoleon. Improvements include committing to melee when more appropriate, using height terrain to better advantage. More committed behaviour, multi tasking on plans and improved siege behavior. Will it be the perfect battle AI? No it will not. AI, like every aspect of development is an iterative process. It will be an AI capable of offering a level of challenge to all players. We recognize our top level players will really only find ultimate tactical satisfaction fighting against other people, which is what some of the new multiplayer game modes are for, particularly drop-in battles. Empire's BAI is a difficult beast. Some users experience certain behaviour where others do not. For example, I have not encountered the melee bug since patch 1.5. This is not to say it doesn't still exist for some, but the majority reporting of this problem is gone.

Modding Empire - Empire had some problems on release, a fact of which we are all aware. As with any software, there are still some remaining issues now. Our focus on release and immediately afterward was not on providing tools for the community but on stability and performance patching. We chose that avenue for maximum benefit for the maximum number of our players. Empire is a moddable game, this is proven by the fact that mods exist for it. We appreciate some people saying it could be more moddable. Of course the ultimate evolution of this is open source software, something CA does not currently do or intend to pursue. We're always looking at how we can make our games more 'mod friendly' as we know this adds an incredible amount of value to TW games. So it's a balancing act, one we continue to evaluate. We can put development time into mod tools or into game polish, and given that we want Napoleon to be our most polished TW to date, our effort is going into that. Again, its a balance and one where we have to chose where to commit resource.

Console games - We have a fully fledged console team here at CA, it is a seperate entity to the TW team, although naturally the two interact. We are staffed to work on two formats simultaneously. So please do not be concerned about us moving fully to console or abandoning TW. This is not our plan and never has been. Also, as a point of note, the UK studio did not make Stormrise.

Communication - We genuinely try our best to communicate to our fans as often as possible and to address the important issues where we can. As you can imagine we are incredibly busy, communication is important and we don't take it lightly. Hence me being here. It is not lost on me or anyone else that players pay our wages.

You guys lie and I'll hate you no matter what - Two points on this one. We know how much hype and excitement there was around Empire, and we know that many people initially felt let down when they had technical issues. We are gamers too. We love games and we play them, when we get excited about something and it doesn't meet our expectations its disappointing. For some of you, this was the end and you'll abandon the franchise as a result. For those that do this, we're sorry we lost you.
What I'd ask is that we are judged by our actions.
We patched Empire six times in almost as many months including hotfixes. We continued to support it both technically, and thematically with unit packs and an extra campaign. This wasn't merciless profiteering, it was an attempt to expand the universe and offer more value. We then ran the Multi Player Beta as promised. With all that said, you cannot buy fan loyalty, you earn it, and we know that. I hope for those of you that have decided you're unsure, we can earn it back. Certainly that's the focus with Napoleon.

Fan 'art' of me - Is printed and put on my desk. Your effort is not wasted.

Kind regards,
Kieran

As posted CA spokesman Keiran Brigden over on the NTW forum:

Looks like no mod tools or patching for Empire.

I feel almost sorry for the guy at the end. Sounds like he gets the `baghdad Brigden` term.

Aye, you patched ETW 6 times and two of those times were FAILED Patches that made the game worse, not better. So four times is more true. No. Did you answer questions such as why are walls unrepairable, why CAI armies cannot retreat or why you never fixed sieges to anything remote realistic (remove the ropes, have the AI siege or bust in with cannons and breach normally as with RTW, MTW2?) All that you made better was naval Invasions which were much better, but then you guys stopped and ran away. No. Wrong.

You didn`t even bother to return us to a 1.3 BAI and now I have to rely on Darthmod to do what you guys should`ve. Perhaps darth should be the one getting at least half your wages.

However, like he says `What I'd ask is that we are judged by our actions. ` I have judged by the actions I saw with ETW. The propaganda, deception and yes, even lies (for that`s what they were) had people like me waiting with baited breath. I even overlooked your force Steam-Only which I hate because I thought Empires would be just too good.

Nah. You blew it.

Still, I shall wait and watch what the ordinary forumer says about NTW.

Oh and Steam should be optional, CA know it, Sega know it and even you, Kieren know it. Choice is always good. There`s a good chance i`d buy NTW if it was, no joke.

[Sir Nicholas Altman]

Damn. There will be no hotfix for Organ gun zoom out bug and captured ships as questionmrks bug. Damn you lazy programers.

[skullman86]

Damn. There will be no hotfix for Organ gun zoom out bug and captured ships as questionmrks bug. Damn you lazy programers.

The Brightworks mod(lol) fixes the organ gun zoom out issue; cant help you with the captured ships though.

On topic: Can anyone really say they are surprised? What's even better is some of the kick-ass stuff that the community requested for ETW (post release) is being added to NTW

...GOOD TIMES!

[Abspara]

I've always judged CA by their actions. Every word I speak about CA and thier handling of ETW is exactly because of their actions, and lack thereof. CA should not be so smug and act as if they have given 100% effort to fixing what they sold me. They haven't.

CA may be gamers but they are also paid professionals who's career is to develop software for a living. Why are sieges and the BAI still a mess? Why do we have to rely on the modding community to try to fix what CA is either incapable of or doesn't care to?

This explanation is nothing but propaganda in advance of NTWs release. Thanks Kieran, but I know your ways all too well.

[Huberto]

I've always judged CA by their actions. Every word I speak about CA and thier handling of ETW is exactly because of their actions, and lack thereof. CA should not be so smug and act as if they have given 100% effort to fixing what they sold me. They haven't.

CA may be gamers but they are also paid professionals who's career is to develop software for a living. Why are sieges and the BAI still a mess? Why do we have to rely on the modding community to try to fix what CA is either incapable of or doesn't care to?

This explanation is nothing but propaganda in advance of NTWs release. Thanks Kieran, but I know your ways all too well.

Exactly. For those of you tempted to feel sorry for Kieran please...reality check: he's a PR guy, the whole point of his job is to take flak, OK? And yes, his PR message is manipulative; PR messages almost always are. You just have to love the audacity of "You guys lie and I'll hate you no matter what." Wow, that's a pretty broad brush you've got there to beat back critics of CA, Kieran. I also love the false choice between hating "no matter what," thereby "abandoning the franchise" and joining the rational discerning community that going to buy NTW on the merits. Classic either/or salesmanship-- loyalty or complete abandonment -- your "choice."

Fundamentally the whole point is they just want us to shut up and go away so they get back to shoveling copies of their Napoleon.

[random_samurai]

Wow, that's a pretty broad brush you've got there to beat back critics of CA, Kieran. I also love the false choice between hating "no matter what," thereby "abandoning the franchise" and joining the rational discerning community that going to buy NTW on the merits. Classic either/or salesmanship-- loyalty or complete abandonment -- your "choice."

Fundamentally the whole point is they just want us to shut up and go away so they get back to shoveling copies of their Napoleon.

This.

[Humble Warrior]

I hate to say it, but you just can`t trust that guy. He really does have some gall to come with that crap and tell us to watch their actions when they have for a year proven so two-faced.

NTW would have to be a miracle and I mean it would have to blow every other TW out of the war to impress me. The fact that it`s such a similar game to ETW and has such a linear storyline compared to the sandbox worldwide game we know and loved is one indication of this... the fact that from when they `hinted` to going back and fixing ETW to keep us sweet last year, when they`d already decided NOT to fix Empires proves their actions. The obvious falsification that they can`t go back and put the good stuff of NTW into ETW is another. Well why not just fix ETW with the stuff you know of ETW then, CA? You don`t have to reverse engineer, just FIX ETW with ETW`s base code. If they really wanted to improve ETW they would.

This crap from him is just a continuing lying PR exercise because NTW due for release in a month, that`s all.

[Robslt]

Clearly an essay and apologies for that.....
I'm a bit confused by all of this vitriolic hatred aimed towards CA/SEGA. I would agree that there were bugs and things weren't right on release and with subsequent patches but i recall it was pretty much always like that? As far as i can tell CA have admitted and apologised (albeit belatedly) for this.

I'm not really a 'hardcore' game-player at all, really the only games i played/play (with a couple of exceptions) have been TW games since I was quite young, but it seems to me that all this is quite over the top.

1) I bought ETW on the day of release and it cost me £30 if i remember correctly. Now that is clearly not to be sniffed at, but that is the equivalent cost of going to weatherspoons for a meal and getting drunk with some friends. In my view (which may be erroneous) the 3 or 4 hours spent doing the above is more than comparable than playing this game for many, many more hours and enjoying it to the extent that you are at least entertained enough to continue posting on this forum.

2) NTW (I must confess that as a historian I am somewhat bias) is something that I am excited about. Yes if the amount of bugs are repeated and particularly modding becomes unfeasible I may rethink. However, it hasn't been released yet so I don't know. As far as I can tell there has been one game in a series stretching back a long time, which everyone here seems to hail as a golden age, that has had some problems (considerable as many may have viewed them), but it seems to me that the developers have at least tried to acknowledge ETWs shortcomings.

3) CA/SEGA are a business so I don't really understand why everyone seems so surprised that ETW has been abandoned in favour of NTW. I can only assume that something was overstretched in ETW development. However, i would assume that their entire 'raison de etre' is selling stuff, therefore, of course move on to the next one if the last one is a bit . (alas i work in the public sector so I may have got this wrong!)

4) Finally, there simply aren't any other games that I'm aware of that even attempt the sort of thing that the TW series has over the years. Namely, attempting to bring a period to life in a manageable and recognisable manner.

I don't want to be abrasive and I hope I haven't come across like that in this incredibly long post...... I just think in essence, who else tries to make games like this?

[irish437]

I hate to say it, but you just can`t trust that guy. He really does have some gall to come with that crap and tell us to watch their actions when they have for a year proven so two-faced.

NTW would have to be a miracle and I mean it would have to blow every other TW out of the war to impress me. The fact that it`s such a similar game to ETW and has such a linear storyline compared to the sandbox worldwide game we know and loved is one indication of this... the fact that from when they `hinted` to going back and fixing ETW to keep us sweet last year, when they`d already decided NOT to fix Empires proves their actions. The obvious falsification that they can`t go back and put the good stuff of NTW into ETW is another. Well why not just fix ETW with the stuff you know of ETW then, CA? You don`t have to reverse engineer, just FIX ETW with ETW`s base code. If they really wanted to improve ETW they would.

This crap from him is just a continuing lying PR exercise because NTW due for release in a month, that`s all.

While I agree with your sentiments that CA has spoken out of both sides of their mouth, I don't think what he said was for PR reasons for Napoleon. If they were going to do that, they would have released another human v human match and proclaimed it was human vs. AI like they did for EMpire. They would just show pretty screenshots until the sheep buckled and bought it on release day.

I appreciate that they at least came clean. If you read between the lines, he tells you that Napoleons AI is going to be mostly the same as EMpire with a few different parameters thrown in. I really don't see how he hyped the game from a PR standpoint.

Instead he played Pontious Pilot and washed his hands of Empire.

[Seb]

If they really wanted to improve ETW they would.

Truth. As soon as it was made public that Napoleon would be a stand-alone released only a year after ETW and not an expansion, it was obvious that any improvement on Empire would stop. If they did improve and fix Empire, there would be no need at all to buy Napoleon.
They want us to buy Napoleon. What's the best way to do so? Let Empire in the sad state it is in right now: playable, but so flawed you only wish to have something better in your hands. (Who never raged at the sight of broken, irreparable walls?)
And it works. Look at the comments around here. You see someone complain in one thread, and in the other, tells a new player to not buy ETW and wait for NTW instead... That's new money coming right in CA's pockets.

[Redbeard]

Darth - basically, when a company hires a big team of scientists who ponder for six months and come up with the formula of E=mc, and then some outside guy comes along and adds the "squared" part, it really doesn't speak well of the team of scientists when they claim "We did all the work and he just added a tiny little number that's one-third the size of our 'E' alone!".

Your mod does make the difference between unacceptably stupid and acceptable AI, which is quite an achievement given the limited tools you had.

[DARTH VADER]

Darth - basically, when a company hires a big team of scientists who ponder for six months and come up with the formula of E=mc, and then some outside guy comes along and adds the "squared" part, it really doesn't speak well of the team of scientists when they claim "We did all the work and he just added a tiny little number that's one-third the size of our 'E' alone!".

Your mod does make the difference between unacceptably stupid and acceptable AI, which is quite an achievement given the limited tools you had.

Very clever answer. I enjoyed it.

[Humble Warrior]

Darth - basically, when a company hires a big team of scientists who ponder for six months and come up with the formula of E=mc, and then some outside guy comes along and adds the "squared" part, it really doesn't speak well of the team of scientists when they claim "We did all the work and he just added a tiny little number that's one-third the size of our 'E' alone!".

Your mod does make the difference between unacceptably stupid and acceptable AI, which is quite an achievement given the limited tools you had.

Agreed. I have just started using this darth Mod out of desperation to get what I paid for and am amazed at the difference, especially with the BAI. And CA couldn`t do this? No, they didn`t want anyone to do too well with the BAI because BAI in NTW is probably only 5% better, if at all.

Makes me really annoyed.

[Redbeard]

Many things were promised. Many promises were broken. Many vague excuses were made.

If you like that kind of treatment, buy Napoo. I am sure the AI will use hills more effectively and engage in melee combat when appropriate. Plus the soldiers are wearing shakos instead of tricornes. And if you buy the special edition, you get a big Napoodoll. How cool is that?

[kosmosje1]

Nice comments from CA. I think he hits the nail on the head. Then again, I know he's doomed to fail regardless because there are always players who can't get 'perfect' enough with any game. So it was with Rome, with Medieval II, so it is with World of Warcraft, and with a 100 different games out there. A game won't ever be perfect and it will never challenge everybody.

[irish437]

Yep, they are done. At least we know that now. The only way you can make a difference is with your pocket book. If you didn't like Empire, I guarantee you won't like Napoleon. Even the screenshots show the brutal criss-cross formation and the dreaded Blob. Buyer Beware. At least he is so much as saying that to you.

If you spend your money on Napoleon, you really have no right to complain. You know what you are in for. So either overlook the downfalls and enjoy it if you can or stay away from it. Its too bad this is the only option on the market right now, but it is.

Too bad they didn't clean up the remaining Empire issues, I think it would have benefited them handsomely in the end.

[Redbeard]

Awww, I was almost touched and felt a bit sorry for Kieran.

But then I remember the sieges, the pathing (last game of ETW I played - 2 months ago - my line infantry wouldn't fire because one guy got stuck some 500 meters back, and when I started to Fuuu.... the indian war drums started beating... on the battlefields of Silesia). Priests chanting "enemy sails ahead"...

Sorry, no forgiveness. You have to do better. Either fix it more (some decent companies I buy from wouldn't release a 1.0 version in the state that Empire is in 1.5) or at least have the guts to really apologize, acknowledging that a lot is still broken (sorry, not just the "difficult to program" AI - did I mention war drums in Silesia? That is what, one file referenced by mistake?) but you've no funds to do anything about it.

[Turbo]

CA has repeatedly said that it is a "question of resources", and that "1.5 was the last major patch", so what is not to understand? Amazing how long it takes sometimes for reality to sink in.

Once Napoleon is released, these same words will be repeated again -- mark my words!

[♔Dignan♔]

It's not about reality. It's about being owed something that wasn't delivered.

I wrote this in the NTW thread on this subject Here is a suggestion....a DLC that offers players the option of downloading the old 1.3 BAI. That would make them money and be almost no extra work. I would probably pay a good sum for that. CA gets their money, we get the game that we originally paid for, and had with 1.1 and 1.3.