The infantry square

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_square
http://brokensquare.net/behindthename.aspx

In ETW infantry squares were very pitiful if you'd ask me. It was a square with soldiers two deep and ranks full of gaping holes instead of a very compact formation 3-4 ranks deep. It couldn't move, it couldn't fire by rank, it had a hard time defending against charging cavalry in which cavalry was often able to break the square (while such a thing was an exception). Most of the cavalry charges versus infantry squares also resulted in cavalry breaking through the ranks and running around in the centre of the square.

Much like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Compare to this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And the battalion square in ETW was even more useless. Units were too much spread out being just 1-2 ranks deep. Also what if CA had considered 1 unit in game (250 men, scale 1:2 or 1:4) = one battalion (in real life 500-1000 men). Then there wouldn't have been a need for a separate battalion square, considering the fact that most squares were formed by battalions (500-1000 men)

Battalion square in ETW:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Any thoughts about this?

one of the problems is that the cavalry is programmed to reach the center of the square, so even if they hit a wall of men with bayonets jabbing at them, they'll continue inching forward until they all die or retreat. short of magic barrier, you just can't stop the badly coded cavalry.

and the infantry also doesn't jab right. you'll see 1 or 2 affected units in front of the horse sticking it with bayonets, and usually this animation takes a silly amount of time to cycle, so by the time they're stabbing the horse again, it's already gone past them into the center.

Originally Posted by johncage

one of the problems is that the cavalry is programmed to reach the center of the square, so even if they hit a wall of men with bayonets jabbing at them, they'll continue inching forward until they all die or retreat. short of magic barrier, you just can't stop the badly coded cavalry.

and the infantry also doesn't jab right. you'll see 1 or 2 affected units in front of the horse sticking it with bayonets, and usually this animation takes a silly amount of time to cycle, so by the time they're stabbing the horse again, it's already gone past them into the center.

Is that so? Hmmm how about making the square more compact. Because the soldiers do have a mass. If the ranks are 3-4 men deep and are very tight then it should be more difficult for cavalry to break through the ranks and end up inside the infantry square.

Imperial Glory did squares very well, the cavalry would simply stop charging if they got too close. Like with pikes and phalanxes they were good versus cavalry not because hundreds of horses impaled themselves for fun but because they reared up and threw the riders rather than charge willing to certain death. They should make a little bit of code which makes horses stop and change direction or have the riders pull out their pistols.

Originally Posted by Zhuge_Liang

Imperial Glory did squares very well, the cavalry would simply stop charging if they got too close. Like with pikes and phalanxes they were good versus cavalry not because hundreds of horses impaled themselves for fun but because they reared up and threw the riders rather than charge willing to certain death. They should make a little bit of code which makes horses stop and change direction or have the riders pull out their pistols.

Pretty sure one of the previews noted that Cavalry weren't so keen on charging squares this time around so CA may have done what you are stating.

Granted, aside from programming issues Cavalry rarely broke a square. I mean they did get in but would eventually get slaugthered and routed.

there simply isnt enough people in the etw unit sizes for squares 3-4 ranks deep

Square is overpowered because it forms at warp speed. Furthermore it gets the bonus against cavalry as soon as the button is pressed while it should get that when fully formed. Correct these two anomalies and we can enjoy a decent square modding the bonus lines in the DB.

Originally Posted by LEGIO_Desaix

Square is overpowered because it forms at warp speed. Furthermore it gets the bonus against cavalry as soon as the button is pressed while it should get that when fully formed. Correct these two anomalies and we can enjoy a decent square modding the bonus lines in the DB.

Just the other day, my Prussian uhlans caught a regiment of Wurttemberger infantry as they were trying to form square and scattered them to hell and gone. That seems accurate enough to me, since there should be a momentary decrease in infantry defence strength when changing formations. Perhaps the mod had something to do with it, since I was playing with the Rights of Man mod, and not vanilla ETW.

There are only a maybe 3 accounts of squares being broken without artillery support or cowardice and stupidity on the infantries part...

Yes squares would be a lot better represented in the game if they were formed of 3 ranks of soldiers: first rank kneeling, and the other two standing. This would present a basic "wall of pointy sticks" agaisnt cavalry and realistically should still allow all the soldiers to fire. More than 3 ranks and i really doubt that the soldiers behind could fire.

The other change as have been mentioned before would be to disable the square button if the unit is already in melee combat, and make it so that the bonus of the square formation only starts a few seconds after hitting the square button (say 3 or 4) and not instantly right away. I say a few seconds and not "when every soldier is in place" because we all know that in ETW some soldiers refuse to go to their places sometimes, getting lost on the way... so i think a timer would work better.

Unfortunately it is only in the hands of CA to fix these things. I would really like CA to look upon it as the changes do not seem to difficult to implement but would greatly improve the game.

Squares should take longer to make. At least twice as long. Now isolating enemy units with horse inst viable in ETW, as they will form square in seconds.

Squares should be able to fire on all sides, not just one.

When cavalry charge a square, they shouldnt smash right through it and break its walls, but slow down, come into contact for a few seconds, kill none or very few infantrymen, before turning back, circling round the square abit, maybe making small attacks, but definately not breaking the squares walls.

Originally Posted by HMS Empire Broadsword

Squares should take longer to make. At least twice as long. Now isolating enemy units with horse inst viable in ETW, as they will form square in seconds.

With all due respect, nothing is wrong with how long it takes to change formations in ETW. I have marched in formation in military training, and I can tell you: after about a month of severe consequences for failure to march and change formations quickly, you get the hang of it.

Considering the punishments back then were unthinkably worse back then and their constant drilling in changing formations, it stands to reason that the time it takes to change to a new formation should only be limited by how fast the soldiers can run.

The Square inf need a mass boost...

even pike squares have this problem they break very easily. Square does destroy cavalry like its meant to as the troops get a melee bonus against cav.

The reason squares are only 2 ranks deep is simple. The number of men in units is really too low to have a 4 rank square work well.

As for the issues of square bonus, cavalry charging square and how squares fire there have been some changes in Napoleon. First off, infantry in square do not get their melee bonus v cavalry until fully formed up. Secondly there are now cavalry refusals in the game. This means that when cavalry attack a square the horses will rear up and then walk into combat meaning squares will not be broken by cavalry and cavalry effectively lose their charge bonus v squares. Squares have also been changed so men fire independently allowing them to better engage cavalry.

Originally Posted by Jack Lusted

The reason squares are only 2 ranks deep is simple. The number of men in units is really too low to have a 4 rank square work well.

As for the issues of square bonus, cavalry charging square and how squares fire there have been some changes in Napoleon. First off, infantry in square do not get their melee bonus v cavalry until fully formed up. Secondly there are now cavalry refusals in the game. This means that when cavalry attack a square the horses will rear up and then walk into combat meaning squares will not be broken by cavalry and cavalry effectively lose their charge bonus v squares. Squares have also been changed so men fire independently allowing them to better engage cavalry.

sweet! im looking forward to release

Originally Posted by Jack Lusted

The reason squares are only 2 ranks deep is simple. The number of men in units is really too low to have a 4 rank square work well.

As for the issues of square bonus, cavalry charging square and how squares fire there have been some changes in Napoleon. First off, infantry in square do not get their melee bonus v cavalry until fully formed up. Secondly there are now cavalry refusals in the game. This means that when cavalry attack a square the horses will rear up and then walk into combat meaning squares will not be broken by cavalry and cavalry effectively lose their charge bonus v squares. Squares have also been changed so men fire independently allowing them to better engage cavalry.

A lot of us have good computers and play, as me in ETW, with units of 500 to 1000 men per units. So, it would be nice if CA could give to modders the way to change the animation and have 3 or 4 ranks if they want. It's just a question of esthetism. Some modders wanted to do it for ETW but they weren't abble to change the animation.

Originally Posted by Jack Lusted

Squares have also been changed so men fire independently allowing them to better engage cavalry.

Looking forward to that feature.

Originally Posted by Jack Lusted

The reason squares are only 2 ranks deep is simple. The number of men in units is really too low to have a 4 rank square work well.

As for the issues of square bonus, cavalry charging square and how squares fire there have been some changes in Napoleon. First off, infantry in square do not get their melee bonus v cavalry until fully formed up. Secondly there are now cavalry refusals in the game. This means that when cavalry attack a square the horses will rear up and then walk into combat meaning squares will not be broken by cavalry and cavalry effectively lose their charge bonus v squares. Squares have also been changed so men fire independently allowing them to better engage cavalry.

why didn't you do this for etw?

Originally Posted by ForlornHope.

why didn't you do this for etw?

Let's look to the future, be constructive!