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Thread: Is atheism its own nemesis?

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  1. #1
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Sometimes we wonder why there haven't been any prophets since Muhammad. The answer is that there probably have been, but that they have met rather immediate ends as their message was not well received by the establishment. Another answer often is that people are no longer susceptible to such nonsense and that if a person were to show up today and go "hey I represent god" we'd probably throw him in a mental institution.

    Going with the former option rather than the latter, it's easy to see that Jesus wasn't much different. He carried a message that was not well received and he was put to death for it. It's funny how christianity didn't take off with the death of Jesus, but only a few hundred years later with the assembly of the Bible and the conversion of Constantine I to Christianity. Especially if you look at the speed with which Christianity spread, like on the map at Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...E2.80.93476.29

    Then you can see how Christianity was at best an illegal minority religion before it was endorsed by Roman leadership. Now what I wonder is the following. What made room within the Roman empire for the practice of Christianity? My answer, even though historians may correct me on this, is simply the fact that the Roman world was crumbling. It was no longer the grand and glorious Empire it had once been and perhaps in desperation people turned to other sources of fortune? This could make people more receptive to the message that Christianity preached.

    Of course in the centuries that followed, Christianity became the dominant religion and remained unchallenged until the late 20th century, where muslim immigration and the rise of Atheism are ensuring quite the spiritual divide in Christian Europe (and America to a lesser extent).

    So it makes sense that there wouldn't have been any new prophets: there simply wasn't room for them. The same is true for the muslim world. After muhammad proceeded to spread his religion by the sword and converting even Zoroastrian Persia to this new faith, was there really any room in the muslim Mid-east for anything new? No, not at all. Matter of fact, maybe even less so than in Christianity because Islam ensures the obedience of its followers by issueing the death penalty to apostates.

    And now atheism rises. We atheists are not united in anything other than our lack of belief in god, and even though we often hear claims from the religious that atheism is a religion too, nothing could be further from the truth. Just because a few atheists are very militant in the expression of their convictions does not mean that that makes up, by any margin, for the complete lack of a dogma and clergical structure or any other form of unity.

    But the irony could be that in experiencing atheism as a religion, say in a fashion similar to the Imperial Truth of Warhammer 40k, we are able to hold off the coming of a new lunatic with a new religious message. Because afterall, what can make people more willing to listen to the words of a new god than the removal of their old one? And that's all atheism is doing.

    What if atheism, by becoming more widespread and turning into the norm sooner or later, actually paves the way for a new prophet? Many of us would cheer at the demise of Christianity and Islam, but what if their existence is the very thing that keeps new, possibly even more genocidal religions at bay?

    Not saying that this is what I think, but it's certainly food for thought. Dr. Croccer for example has pointed out before that most atheists don't believe in god simply because they can't seem to be bothered and it's precisely this apathic demographic that would most easily be converted into something new. Will atheism only experience a century or two of domination before it's replaced by something else? Are we atheists merely part of a transitionary phase in which the old religions vanish and new religions rise?

    Is the irony here that only by experiencing atheism as a dogma we will be able to prevent that from happening?

    It's a scary thought.
    Last edited by The Dude; January 17, 2010 at 05:42 AM.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  2. #2
    Fiyenyaa's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    But the irony could be that in experiencing atheism as a religion, say in a fashion similar to the Imperial Truth of Warhammer 40k, we are able to hold off the coming of a new lunatic with a new religious message. Because afterall, what can make people more willing to listen to the words of a new god than the removal of their old one? And that's all atheism is doing.

    What if atheism, by becoming more widespread and turning into the norm sooner or later, actually paves the way for a new prophet? Many of us would cheer at the demise of Christianity and Islam, but what if their existence is the very thing that keeps new, possibly even more genocidal religions at bay?
    If you arrive at atheism for good reasons, you won't be susceptible to any kind of new prophet unless he makes testable claims that he can prove.
    As for the apathetic; all we need to do is publically call this new prophet on his and he'll be exposed.

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    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiyenyaa View Post
    If you arrive at atheism for good reasons, you won't be susceptible to any kind of new prophet unless he makes testable claims that he can prove.
    As for the apathetic; all we need to do is publically call this new prophet on his and he'll be exposed.
    Perhaps so, but then the same happened to Jesus and 300 years later the religion that he founded still took off.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

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    Fiyenyaa's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Perhaps so, but then the same happened to Jesus and 300 years later the religion that he founded still took off.
    Most people are alot better informed than they were 1,700 years ago.

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    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Maybe, in the far future, but i'll be dead and decayed so i don't care.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Maybe, in the far future, but i'll be dead and decayed so i don't care.
    Won't someone please think of the children.

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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Maybe, in the far future, but i'll be dead and decayed so i don't care.
    Well part of the whole reason I am such a supporter of atheism becoming more widespread is because I think it'd be a better future for the following generations. So yes, if all we're doing is clearing the way for a new religion then that is something that matters to me.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

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    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    I care about the state of the planet i leave to my children, but i do not care about whether my children believe in a god or not.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

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    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    I care about the state of the planet i leave to my children, but i do not care about whether my children believe in a god or not.
    I'd rather my children weren't brainwashed either way.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Sometimes we wonder why there haven't been any prophets since Muhammad.
    The Mormons would like a word with you.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  11. #11
    Augment's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    With the Rise of Atheism also comes Freethinking and Reason, so if a prophet starts preaching goofy stuff then he will have to give evidence or he'll be treated like another wacko religious dude.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Well from a religous persons view point, god created the earth and sent the prophets and they were here from the begining. Islam for example, we dont beleive we took off as a religion when the Quran came, but we beleive it is the final word of the creator. Therefore, our God has always existed and will always exist, and his message has always been preached on earth. So in that respect, its not looney after looney.

    As for Athiesm becomming dominant, I hope people choose a path that is right for them, whatever it is, Im not bothered as long as I can practise my faith, believe freely in what I want. I'm a human before anything else and as a human I think I have every right to beleive in what I beleive in, as you do. It's better to find something we both agree on and cut halfway and live peacefully, rather then try to dominate the others rights with our own belief or lack of belief systems. I highly doubt religion will be totally wiped to be honest, as I think science will never answer everything, the more science has developed in its history, the more questions there are to be asked and thats the way it will be for a very, very long time. And as long as this continues, people like me who really dont know, will opt to believe in a religion, in a creator, though I always want an open mind and make sure religion doesnt restrict me from it.

    I think it is possible that when science cant explain somethings, people will always go back to religions, maybe some new mainstream religions will form, maybe the old ones revived, who knows. But I believe there will always be a divide, and with the whole notion of Athiesm it is hard to convert an athiest to a religion without concrete scientific evidence.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    This is how atheism works as a philosophy.



    Terminator: "Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range."
    Gun store keeper: "Hey only what you see pal."

    And also

    Gun store keeper: "Hey you can't do that."
    Last edited by Helm; January 17, 2010 at 11:08 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Sometimes we wonder why there haven't been any prophets since Muhammad.
    I guess you've never heard of Sikhism, the 5th largest religion in the world. Or Baha'i, the 7th largest religion? Both of whose "prophets" are post-Mohammed.......

    Clearly pre-existing religion does not stop other faiths from springing up (in fact I'd say it helps!) and indeed even within current faiths there are many sects and prophets.


    Yes it might be possible for other faiths to emerge from "atheist" societies but I doubt any more-so than under religious ones.
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    And seeing as we're on the subject of Warhammer 40K the religions they believe in are based entirely on things that do actually exist, so no faith involved.

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    Arch-hereticK's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helm View Post
    And seeing as we're on the subject of Warhammer 40K the religions they believe in are based entirely on things that do actually exist, so no faith involved.
    Well as much faith as somoeone who's never been to Australia believes that Australia exists.
    (on the 40k topic)
    We could look at the pre-Horusheresy period and see the entire human race subjected to a dogma of disbelief in the super-natural, that may be similar to modern atheism in a sense, but the bottom line is: we don't know.

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    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    The entire OP falls flat on its face in the very first sentence, there's been loads of prophets since Mohammed.

    And the rest of the OP reeks of exceptionalism, as if an atheist society would be fundamentally different than a religious one. Something for which there's no evidence, and a sentiment that's actually shared by many Evangelicals, and I presume certain currents in other religions as well.

  18. #18
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    The entire OP falls flat on its face in the very first sentence, there's been loads of prophets since Mohammed.
    Yeah and how many established world religions?

    And the rest of the OP reeks of exceptionalism, as if an atheist society would be fundamentally different than a religious one. Something for which there's no evidence, and a sentiment that's actually shared by many Evangelicals, and I presume certain currents in other religions as well.
    No it wouldn't be fundamentally different at all but maybe people would be more susceptible to a new god being introduced, especially in times of hardship? Who can today convert the Middle East to a new religion? Nobody. There simply is no room for a new faith there.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
    - Richard Feynman's words. My atheism.

  19. #19
    Fiyenyaa's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Yeah and how many established world religions?
    People have already mentioned Sikhism and Baha'i. Dunno if you'd count Mormonism?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is atheism its own nemesis?

    The Emperor himself was an atheist, even if he ended up ultimately being worshipped as god.

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