Enhancing Archery

[soveliss99]

EDit: Try not to stray off topic if you could since discussions that arise from this topic tend to go on and on (like any other offtopic discussions). A great example would be page 2 where we have people talking about elvish sex drives and children. Rather post an opinion of the points I make, I would like to see what you all have to say of what I have come up with.

Enhancing Archery

I LOVE the archery in this game. It's the best I've seen from all of the M2TW mods I've downloaded.Bending bows just took my breath away and I was delighted to see the damn annoyin arrow trails removed.There are some things I have noticed that could be changed to enhance the Archery though.

Standardize Bows In Elven Armies
I can understand the desire for variety in weapons but bows should be standardized in the elven units, who are professional warriors. Variety in other weapons is awesome but in elven bows it just seems strange personally. Orcs/haradrim on the other hand are a rabble and SHOULD have different bows but the Sindar elves should have standardized galadrim bows for the sindar archer regiments. uniqueness of elven bows could be found in shades of the bow, light yellow to dark brown since their colors differed in the movies. I have also noticed the bow on haldirs back is in fact a galadrim bow. Noldor archers should have bows like the ones from the Prologue battle in the fellowship of the ring.

Retexture Some Bows:
I have noticed that the loke-nar-im archers for Rhun have bows very very very similar to the Galadrim bows of the movies except for leaf and vine wrappings and large recurved tips, maybe take the bows they use, edit them, and implement them onto the heavy elven archer units since lighter elven archer units (sentinels of woodland realm etc) would have had lighter, more versitile bow. Maybe even give The Sentinels of the Woodland Realm bows that mimic legolas's first hickory bow with large recurves in the Fellowship of the Ring since his first bow was of mirkwood and sentinels of the woodland realm could be elves of Mirkwood. Also goblin bows should be shortened and more spikes and blades added to orc and goblin bows alike. The Uruk bows could also be changed along with Uruk crossbows to resemble those from the movies more, black with axes/blades on them. Haradrim bows too could be looked at. The addition of spikes and recurves with a more bamboo/bone looking appearance would go with their armor nicely. Also another thought on Uruk Archers, I think it would better suit them to be Uruk Scouts and make them have similar models to Uruk Reavers, leather armor etc and quivers at their sides with thick dark highly recurved bows as lurtz had.

Animations and Sound:
Edit the noises of arrows and bows if you can, make arrows hiss or whistle, bows snap and twang much like they did in the movie. Drawing animations could be added to the Orc factions and Haradrim too. Also I am wondering if it would be possible if a certain ammount of arrows could be left stuck in the ground after a volley permenently through the duration of the battle to delineate where volleys of arrows have struck the ground giving the dead on the ground even more detail or would this contribute to excessive lag. I noticed that the LoTR mod for Alexander total war managed to take bow snapping and twanging sounds from those used in the movies. Here take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-YJaGMYf9s&feature=related

Bow Examples:

Elves
Noldor/Eldar
The only picture I could find, notice the bows are longbows with quite unique, radical ends or tips. Other pictures i've seen of their bows resemble assyrian and egyptian angular bow.
Notice the bowcase to the far left, the top of the case greatly resemble noldor recvurves up close!
http://www.instonebrewer.com/bpg2009...d%20arrows.gif
Assyrian "Duck Billed" bow tips/ends (noldor resemblance)
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Misc/ltr_no11.gif
Persian "Duck Billed" tip (noldor resemblance)
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Misc/ltr_no12.gif
Noldorian Archers- doesnt show as much tip detail as it does in photos of noldor bows ive seen from the movies
http://www.apocprod.com/images/LOTR%20Game/Elf%20archers.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/seejaysmithtest/HighElfBow.jpg
Galadrim Archers
http://media.photobucket.com/image/galadrim%20bow/filigod/otherbows/haldir2.jpg
http://www.wetanz.com/assets/Uploads/lotrelvenarcherlrg2.jpg
Sentinels of the Woodland realm
Like I said above, give Sentinels of the Woodland Realm Legolas's Hickory Mirkwood bow from the Fellowship
http://bowstick.com/legolasbow_files/legolasmirkwoodbow.jpg

Orcs/golbins
Goblin Archers
http://www.lotrfanshop.com/lotrshop/images/sideshow/s4f3big.gif
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511D49QTWVL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
Mordor Orc Archer
http://www.collecttolkien.com/images/Figures/Figure%20Eaglemoss%20LOTR%20Moria%20Orc%20Archer%2049.jpg
Uruk Crossbow
http://vnmedia.ign.com/mevault.ign.com/fms/images/content/57/1140429846_thumb.jpg
Uruk Scout Longbow
http://www.council-of-elrond.com/castdb/lurtz/lurtz2.jpg

Haradrim
Southron Archers
http://www.freewebs.com/sauronthedarklord/-%20New%20Folder/Haradrim-kriger.jpg
http://www.collecttolkien.com/images/Figures/Figure%20Eaglemoss%20LOTR%20Haradrim%20Archer%2051.jpg
http://www.darksidecostumes.org/images/Haradrim%20bow.jpg

[Vifarc]

Standardize Bows In Elven Armies
I can understand the desire for variety in weapons but bows should be standardized in the elven units, who are professional warriors. Variety in other weapons is awesome but in bows it just seems strange personally. the Sindar elves should have standardized galadrim bows for the sindar archer regiments and forest warden archer units etc.

I don't think so. I'll see elven society somewhat anarchist, they are self-wild and won't work for money from a boss. The army is not professionnal but voluntary. Uniforms is just that they are easier to craft, that's not compulsory as in professional armies.

[soveliss99]

I don't think so. I'll see elven society somewhat anarchist, they are self-wild and won't work for money from a boss. The army is not professionnal but voluntary. Uniforms is just that they are easier to craft, that's not compulsory as in professional armies.

What of the Galadrim? I could understand other elven regiments being unprofessional such as rangers, but the Galadrim are depicted as top of the notch fighters at helms deep in the movies. They are extremely disciplined and skilled. When you say that the elven armies are voluntary, it seems as if you're saying that they are basically a draft force a basic militia. Also look at the Noldor at the Prologue in the Fellowship. They have great coordination as well and resonate with professionalism.

[Muffer Nl]

movies

And there is where your reasoning encounters epic fail as far as the majority of the community that have been supporting this mod since before the release is concerned.

[soveliss99]

And there is where your reasoning encounters epic fail as far as the majority of the community that have been supporting this mod since before the release is concerned.

I mentioned the bows in the movies since this mod extracts a great deal from it. I fail to see how referring to movies makes my thread and reasoning an epic fail.

[Russian Gondor]

If you think much of bows only for the elves what will they fight with in melee?

[soveliss99]

If you think much of bows only for the elves what will they fight with in melee?

Well their armies are generally focused on archery. The have only horse archers for calvary and the Infantry they do get are meant to support their bowmen. And their melee weapons are fine in my opinion.

[Orson]

As Elves are the most wise creatures on earth (besides wizards) I am sure they will remember to carry a sword along with a bow, they cant expect to kill an entire orc army with just bows and arrows, elves, after all are low in numbers.

[soveliss99]

As Elves are the most wise creatures on earth (besides wizards) I am sure they will remember to carry a sword along with a bow, they cant expect to kill an entire orc army with just bows and arrows, elves, after all are low in numbers.

A little off topic we're getting but of course they have melee weapons to back up ranged ones. I dont know who said that elves should just have bows and no melee weapons.

[Kawee]

They are in fact the finest swordsmen in all of ME.

But back to archery, me thinks they should have standardized bows to a certain extent. You would think they've had the time to figure out the best bows possible, and just all use that.

[RyuAzai]

You're response describing them as professional soldier's as seen in the movie, is what was considered a 'fail'

It falls more on the line of an all volunteer force, not to say it wasn't organized, but the 'guards' as what they were called by the time of the third age were advanced but didn't have the mass production you are hinting it

Also each bow and sword, from an elven craft point, would be like a work of art. Much like what dwarves would think of armor, so while similar they would have their difference.

[soveliss99]

You're response describing them as professional soldier's as seen in the movie, is what was considered a 'fail'

It falls more on the line of an all volunteer force, not to say it wasn't organized, but the 'guards' as what they were called by the time of the third age were advanced but didn't have the mass production you are hinting it

Also each bow and sword, from an elven craft point, would be like a work of art. Much like what dwarves would think of armor, so while similar they would have their difference.

You have a legitimate point. Bows from cultures are drawn from the same basic slate same construction yet differing in appearance from color to even adornments or even certain parts of the bow (lack of a better term) reinforced to give it an extra boost in power or arrow speed. An example could be comparing a hungarian bow to a Mongolian.

Mongol:
http://mongolianshop.com/images/bow_standard1.jpg
Notice the String bridges at the siyahs which allow to bow to let off an extra push to propell the arrow

Hungarian:
http://www.hungarian-bow.com/traditional_bow_051.jpg
notice at the ends of the bow (siyahs) there are no string bridges to give it the extra snap to propell the arrow unlike the mongol bow but it still retains the basic reflex shape look with siyahs as the mongol has

Not every weapon made by elves could truly be "works of art" since they were not like the higher end weapons they would make, artifacts if you will. Hadhafang, aigelios (ice spear?), the bow of the galadriel weapons like this is when elven craftsmen would have taken the time to truly make their work "works of art". All the other weaponry by elves would differ only slightly in modifications but still resemble eachother very closely(like the mongol and hungarian bows). They would have to supply a "volunteer force" with slightly massed weapons not saying they were crude. Not all elves were able to have such unique arms save for royalty and high ranking elves who would be able to afford them.

[Muffer Nl]

I would say that every Elf had it's own style and thus you would have several 'perfect' bows.

[soveliss99]

I would say that every Elf had it's own style and thus you would have several 'perfect' bows.

There is no doubt though that "every elf" would have been influenced by the craftsman ship of others.

[Shiftehh]

The archery sounds are perfect in that video.. Would love to hear them in TA:TW

[Point Blank]

Well Galadriel gave Legolas a Galadhrim bow made from mallorn etc so clearly there are different qualities of elven bow. Also mounted units would use a smaller bow. And its never made entirely clear (unless I missed it) exactly what style of bows the elves used - simple/longbow, composite etc. You would think they would have developed composite/recurve bows but maybe the fine woods they have access too are of such quality that a simple longbow design is enough, as well as not being subject to issues with glues as used by composites in bad weather.

[soveliss99]

Well Galadriel gave Legolas a Galadhrim bow made from mallorn etc so clearly there are different qualities of elven bow. Also mounted units would use a smaller bow. And its never made entirely clear (unless I missed it) exactly what style of bows the elves used - simple/longbow, composite etc. You would think they would have developed composite/recurve bows but maybe the fine woods they have access too are of such quality that a simple longbow design is enough, as well as not being subject to issues with glues as used by composites in bad weather.

I had a book a while ago, i forget the exact name, but it was something like Weapons and warfare of LOTR. It was a paperback book with great photos from the movies by Peter Jackson and very lengthy descriptions. I remember it saying in there that Galadrim elves would have had their bows made of mallorn (the finest bow wood) since it was so available to them in Lorien. Legolas's bow of Galadriel was made from the heart wood of the tree hence it's light/white color. The other Longbows of Galadrim elves were typically darker since heartwood of such thick trees seem like it is harder to reach in my opinion therefore making The bow of the galadriel a unique artifact as unique as the wood it is crafted from.

[Deedlit]

I Agree with the Arrow sounds though. I think the LOTR Movies perfected the Sound of an arrow wooshing through the air.

Hope the Mod team reads this thread and changes the arrow sound.

[ArmyCharger]

While on the subject, does Tolkien actually says anywhere Elves loved bows so freaking much? I don't recall reading anywhere they use bows much more often than Men do. I'm talking about Elves in general, of all Ages, of all realms. Sure, they're much better at archery, but so are they at swordsmanship and spear-handling, right? Same for Dwarves and axes.

The only reason i can think of to make the elves the archery faction, which they are in every LOTR-game, and Dwarves the axe-faction, are Gimli and Legolas...

[soveliss99]

While on the subject, does Tolkien actually says anywhere Elves loved bows so freaking much? I don't recall reading anywhere they use bows much more often than Men do. I'm talking about Elves in general, of all Ages, of all realms. Sure, they're much better at archery, but so are they at swordsmanship and spear-handling, right? Same for Dwarves and axes.

The only reason i can think of to make the elves the archery faction, which they are in every LOTR-game, and Dwarves the axe-faction, are Gimli and Legolas...

You speak the truth. I have read your argument on one of the topics here yesterday, i believe it was about the Silvan elves needing a new roster or something but I do agree with you on that.